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 Post subject: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #1 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:21 am 
Lives with ko

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This seems like a fun way to get involved in this community. So this thread is for people to sign up (put I AM IN at the top of your first post in this thread if you want in) and discuss format for a Lifein19x19 tourney.

Here's my $.02 worth. I reckon fewer than 9 entrants should be a round robin league type thing more than that swiss tourney that way everyone plays every round. Everyone plays 4 games of 9x9 10:00+5x15s byo-yomi twice as black twice as white with no handicaps. 0pts for a loss, 0.5 for a draw and 1pt for a win where points are awarded for match victories rather than games. With one round being scheduled every week.

So, discussion of board size (9x9 or 13x13 I think because they are harder to find and are both quick and good for beginner learning), time controls and overall format. I'm happy to run it if there is no one more qualified but it may be a bit of a learn as I go along.

I AM IN.

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Last edited by SinK on Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:59 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner's forum tourney or League
Post #2 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:44 pm 
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I AM IN

I like the idea of a 9x9 tournament as well. The games would be short and 9x9 seems like a good size to review on the forums afterwards.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner's forum tourney or League
Post #3 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:58 am 
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I think we'll start on Sunday the 25th (edit: make that Sunday the 1st of August) regardless of numbers (>4 would be ideal though) and allow late registration or something I think it is more likely to grow if we start it off small than if we try to wait for loads of players. Then I'll start a separate thread to run the league in.

So there you have it people, sign-up before Sunday. Do not delay.

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Last edited by SinK on Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Beginner's forum tourney or League
Post #4 Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:08 am 
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I don't think two is enough to call it a tournament but if you would like to play some time let me know when you're free.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner's forum tourney or League
Post #5 Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:10 am 
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What's the definition of beginner? I am about 15k and don't see much point in entering the main tournament, but would still like to play some competitive games - so if I am still a beginner then I AM IN.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner's forum tourney or League
Post #6 Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:19 am 
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I'm available for most of the day to play on kgs, is there a life in 19x19 room? I would be interested in trying to play a Malkovich game on the forum as well. 9x9 would be a good starting size to get the hang of it and a forum game might get other people involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner's forum tourney or League
Post #7 Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:32 am 
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I think any kyu player could be considered a beginner but as it is three isn't really enough for a league or tourney I think we'll wait to get one more person before we make a go of it. As for a 9x9 Malkovich I would be more than happy to play though I've played very little and find myself very lost very quickly on such a small board. Would that run as a Beginner's forum thread or a Malkovich thread?

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner's forum tourney or League
Post #8 Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:35 am 
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I'd like to encourage this sort of tourney, so I'm willing to offer teaching games and/or game reviews as prizes.

For the cut off of who qualifies as beginner, I say go with double-digit kyu. That should give you a range of skill levels but also be a wide enough group to include a fair number of people.

I usually break down levels as follows, because it's easy to remember:
20+ kyu == beginner
10-19 kyu == novice
1-9 kyu == intermediate
1+ dan == advanced

Including the first two categories in this tourney would seem appropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner's forum tourney or League
Post #9 Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:32 am 
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fwiffo wrote:
I'd like to encourage this sort of tourney, so I'm willing to offer teaching games and/or game reviews as prizes.

For the cut off of who qualifies as beginner, I say go with double-digit kyu. That should give you a range of skill levels but also be a wide enough group to include a fair number of people.

I usually break down levels as follows, because it's easy to remember:
20+ kyu == beginner
10-19 kyu == novice
1-9 kyu == intermediate
1+ dan == advanced

Including the first two categories in this tourney would seem appropriate.


Agreed with all of this, and I'm very happy offering the same :)

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner's forum tourney or League
Post #10 Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:08 am 
Gosei

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topazg wrote:
fwiffo wrote:
I'd like to encourage this sort of tourney, so I'm willing to offer teaching games and/or game reviews as prizes.

For the cut off of who qualifies as beginner, I say go with double-digit kyu. That should give you a range of skill levels but also be a wide enough group to include a fair number of people.

I usually break down levels as follows, because it's easy to remember:
20+ kyu == beginner
10-19 kyu == novice
1-9 kyu == intermediate
1+ dan == advanced

Including the first two categories in this tourney would seem appropriate.


Agreed with all of this, and I'm very happy offering the same :)


Both the above are stronger than I, but I would also offer my teaching services as well as possible prize. Now all you need are participants. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner's forum tourney or League
Post #11 Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:51 am 
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i will offer a Malkovich game with me :)
seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner's forum tourney or League
Post #12 Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:57 am 
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Given that we've got as many teachers as participants now, maybe we should offer a review or teaching game to each participant and maybe some extra teaching games/reviews as prizes. That way even the greenest entrants will get something out of it.

Don't be shy DDKs! Everybody was a beginner once (maybe not Magicwand).

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner's forum tourney or League
Post #13 Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:29 am 
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I am more than happy to run the practical stuff in terms of keeping track of scores and who plays who when but I will allow the more experienced members who are offering the prizes to decide how they will work amongst themselves.

As of right now I'm feeling fairly confident of taking at least bronze. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner's forum tourney or League
Post #14 Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:34 am 
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I suggest we rename this to a DDK forum tourney to be more informative. I would be glad to offer teaching games as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Double Digit Kyu Tourney Sign-up.
Post #15 Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:56 am 
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Right I think two weeks is long enough.

I will edit this line when sign up closes:
LATE SIGN UP IS STILL OPEN. POST "I AM IN" IN CAPITAL'S AND I WILL ADD YOU TO THE ROSTER. YOU WILL NEED TO PLAY MULTIPLE GAMES IN THE FIRST WEEK TO CATCH UP.

As of right now entrants are:

SinK
noodley
keithlard

Those who have offered learning games and commentaries should decide how these will be awarded.

Since there are only three participant's us we can probably cope without too much organisation and the game will be played as a round robin tournament with everyone playing everyone. So PM the other two players and sort out a time to play. We have two matches each so I will allow a two week deadline but if we get the results in within one week then that is excellent.

So here's the format:
A game consists of a 9x9 game played with 10min+5x30secbyo-yomi time controls. 5.5 Komi and territory (Japanese) scoring. A match consists of two games. No handicap. One game as black, one game as white. Scoring is 1pt for 2-0 victory, 0.5pt for a 1-1 draw and 0pt for a 0-2 defeat. Everyone plays everyone and the winner is the man with the most points. Record the game scores for tie breaking purposes (average score ratio will be used to decide the winner in the case of a draw ie. average player's score in player's games divide by average of opponents' scores in players games).

When you have played post scores below in the following format if your opponent has already posted quote his post and say confirmed to confirm he isn't a Liar McCheaty-Pants:
UsernamePlayer1 (player1matchScore-player2matchScore) UsernamePlayer2
Game1: Score(as above) eg. 27-14
Game2: Score

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Last edited by SinK on Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Double Digit Kyu Tourney Sign-up.
Post #16 Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:10 am 
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SinK wrote:
So here's the format:
A game consists of a 9x9 game played with 5min+5x30 sec byo-yomi time controls. A match consists of two games. No handicap.


Komi? Scoring rules?

SinK wrote:
One game as black, one game as white. Scoring is 1pt for 2-0 victory, 0.5pt for a 1-1 draw and 0pt for a 0-2 defeat. Everyone plays everyone and the winner is the man with the most points. Record the game scores for tie breaking purposes (average score ratio will be used to decide the winner in the case of a draw ie. average player's score in player's games divide by average of opponents' scores in players games)


Make sure you are aware of the advantages and disadvantages of using the average score ratio tiebreak - FWIW, I think for DDK games it's quite a good idea, as it probably encourages counting more.

SinK wrote:
When you have played post scores below in the following format if your opponent has already posted quote his post and say confirmed to confirm he isn't a Liar McCheaty-Pants:
UsernamePlayer1 (player1matchScore-player2matchScore) UsernamePlayer2
Game1: Score(as above) eg. 27-14
Game2: Score


Again, the scoring depends on the scoring rules, so make sure this is explicit or you could have some add differences between the games :)

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 Post subject: Re: Double Digit Kyu Tourney Sign-up.
Post #17 Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:34 am 
Lives with ko

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topazg wrote:
SinK wrote:
So here's the format:
A game consists of a 9x9 game played with 5min+5x30 sec byo-yomi time controls. A match consists of two games. No handicap.


Komi? Scoring rules?

SinK wrote:
One game as black, one game as white. Scoring is 1pt for 2-0 victory, 0.5pt for a 1-1 draw and 0pt for a 0-2 defeat. Everyone plays everyone and the winner is the man with the most points. Record the game scores for tie breaking purposes (average score ratio will be used to decide the winner in the case of a draw ie. average player's score in player's games divide by average of opponents' scores in players games)


Make sure you are aware of the advantages and disadvantages of using the average score ratio tiebreak - FWIW, I think for DDK games it's quite a good idea, as it probably encourages counting more.

SinK wrote:
When you have played post scores below in the following format if your opponent has already posted quote his post and say confirmed to confirm he isn't a Liar McCheaty-Pants:
UsernamePlayer1 (player1matchScore-player2matchScore) UsernamePlayer2
Game1: Score(as above) eg. 27-14
Game2: Score


Again, the scoring depends on the scoring rules, so make sure this is explicit or you could have some add differences between the games :)


I've fixed my post with regards to komi and scoring. What are the advantages and disadvantages of the tie breaker and what are the other options (is there a standard option) for it?

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #18 Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:36 am 
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I AM IN.

At 26 kyo, I might not last long but what the hay.

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #19 Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:48 am 
Lives with ko

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Current Players:
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At the moment you are still expected to arrange your own games but if we get many more I will start to assign which games should be played in which time periods.

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 Post subject: Re: Double Digit Kyu Tourney Sign-up.
Post #20 Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:59 am 
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SinK wrote:
I've fixed my post with regards to komi and scoring. What are the advantages and disadvantages of the tie breaker and what are the other options (is there a standard option) for it?


Disadvantages - It's not really go. Many games are complicated games that end in resignation because of a very close fight between two large groups, and one was always destined to die. By tiebreaking on score a) you don't allow resignations at all, unless you have a default score difference, and b) it makes very close games where this happens very unfortunate for the losing player, as it could end up an unfairly large score difference. Some people end up playing hopelessly passively to avoid losing groups, others go crazily aggressive in the hope of maximising as many group kills as possible - either way you don't end up with Go the way people would normally play it.

Advantages, it can lead to some interesting games when tiebreakers become important - strategic decisions to maximise potential win margin or minimise risk of win margin could be interesting meta-gaming for some.

Other options:

Double round robin means no SOS, but SODOS (or S/B) is possible and commonly used. Head to head is another obvious tiebreaker, but over 2 games can often lead to ties, in which case a secondary tiebreaker such as SODOS is useable.

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