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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #41 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:30 am 
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SinK 0-2 noodley

Game 1: noodley(w)23.5-16.0 S1NK
Game 2: S1NK 13.5-19.0 noodley

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #42 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:05 am 
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noodley (15k, White) vs S1NK (21k, Black)
Result: 23.5 - 16.0, White wins by 7.5 points

Review:

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[9]KM[5.50]TM[600]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]
PW[noodley]PB[S1NK]WR[15k]BR[21k]DT[2010-08-03]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]RE[W+7.50]
;B[ee]BL[596.589]
;W[cc]WL[584.865]
;B[fc]BL[588.636]
;W[eb]WL[563.159]
;B[fg]BL[547.357]
;W[gc]WL[539.338]C[Interesting idea - Black has some reading to do.]
(;B[gd]BL[532.433]
;W[gb]WL[504.963]
(;B[hc]BL[492.386]C[H6 is locally a bit better, as White cannot get H8 (or, in that case, H7) with a threat to capture. Black should also consider F8, keeping White low.]
;W[fb]WL[487.341]
(;B[fd]BL[483.598]C[E7 also fixes this cut ..]
;W[hb]WL[464.324]
(;B[id]BL[457.625]C[It is rare that this is the correct shape. Normally Black plays the solid connection to deprive White of sente on this edge (if Black extends to the edge, White can do so too in sente - normally, solidly connecting lets Black hane in sente first).

Globally, this is also too slow. Remember White can only capture the stone in gote anyway, and it's worth 6 points to do so (or for Black to protect). That lower left corner is much bigger (see tenuki variation).]
(;W[cg]WL[367.357]
;B[dg]BL[435.513]
;W[df]WL[331.416]C[White is probably better just extending to C4, but this is ok because of the E3 atari threat as well.]
;B[ce]BL[403.043]
;W[bf]WL[239.238]
;B[ef]BL[241.92]
;W[cf]WL[147.984]
;B[cd]BL[141.108]C[Very nice.]
;W[dd]WL[123.418]C[This helps Black, and doesn't help White's shape much - better to descend to B7 and keep the corner.]
;B[de]BL[88.107]
;W[ec]WL[105.841]
;B[bc]BL[40.198]C[This is now severe from the point of view of points in the corner]
;W[cb]WL[94.02]
;B[bb]BL[18.863]
;W[be]WL[82.781]
;B[bd]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[dh]WL[81.031]
;B[eh]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[eg]WL[62.358]
;B[ed]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[dc]WL[60.038]
;B[dg]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[he]WL[52.618]
;B[hd]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[eg]WL[28.449]
;B[ae]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[dg]WL[21.225]
(;B[ff]BL[30]OB[5]C[F2 is a must, the cut here fails instantly.]
;W[fh]WL[18.992]
;B[gh]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[ei]WL[15.99]
;B[gi]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[af]WL[0.099]
;B[ad]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[ba]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[ib]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[ha]WL[30]OW[4]
;B[ab]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[fi]WL[30]OW[4]
;B[gg]BL[30]OB[5]C[Not necessary, and costs Black a point.]
;W[ia]WL[30]OW[4]
;B[ic]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[ca]WL[30]OW[4]
;B[]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[]WL[30]OW[4]TW[da][ea][fa][ga][db][ag][bg][ah][bh][ch][eh][ai][bi][ci][di]TB[ac][fe][ge][he][ie][gf][hf][if][hg][ig][hh][ih][hi][ii])
(;B[fh]
;W[ff]
;B[gf]C[Not only this, but also that corner looks dead with a placement tesuji.]
;W[fe]
;B[bh]
;W[af]
;B[di]
;W[ci]
;B[ei]
;W[ch]
;B[ah]C[Or any one of a number of variations...]))
(;W[he]
;B[hd]
;W[gg]C[This is some of the sort of aji that is left with the hanging connection at J6. It's normally not worth leaving this amount of bad aji in a position, especially near a corner.]))
(;B[hd]C[Normal.]
;W[ic]C[White can only play this in gote now.])
(;B[ic]C[Almost always incorrect.]
;W[ib]
;B[hd])
(;B[cf]C[Tenuki variation]
;W[hd]
;B[he]
;W[ic]
;B[bd]
;W[ie]
;B[hf]
;W[if]
;B[ig]
;W[id]
;B[hg]
;W[bc]
;B[cd]))
(;B[ec]
;W[fd]
;B[ed]
;W[fe]
;B[ge]
;W[ff]TR[ef][gf]C[The ladder works in both directions.]))
(;B[fb]
(;W[fa]
;B[ec]
;W[db]
;B[hc])
(;W[hd]
;B[ge]
;W[fa]
;B[ec]
;W[db]
;B[he])))
(;B[fb]C[The obvious punishment risks letting White live on the right edge - cutting White off may not be optimal play here.]))[/sgf-full]

S1NK (21k, White) vs noodley (15k, Black)
Result: 13.5 - 19.0, Black wins by 5.5 points

Review:

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[9]KM[5.50]TM[600]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]
PW[S1NK]PB[noodley]WR[21k]BR[15k]DT[2010-08-03]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]RE[B+5.50]
;B[gc]BL[589.598]
;W[df]WL[593.923]C[4-4 moves aren't quite the same on a 9x9 board - easy to invade, they require a fighting strategy.]
;B[cc]BL[559.456]
;W[ge]WL[573.571]
;B[fd]BL[524.414]
;W[fe]WL[567.279]
;B[gg]BL[470.731]
;W[fg]WL[550.539]
;B[hf]BL[441.833]
;W[gf]WL[534.655]C[It is very rare that the empty triangle here will be correct. First priority seems to be stopping Black from connecting underneath, so the block looks right. Then it is down to whether Black can live comfortably in the corner, which he can. White's opening is a failure, largely because of playing way too far away from the bottom edge.]
;B[hg]BL[421.154]
;W[gh]WL[524.732]
;B[he]BL[412.253]
;W[gd]WL[498.564]
;B[hd]BL[397.779]
;W[ed]WL[486.36]
;B[fc]BL[357.615]
;W[dd]WL[472.618]C[Interesting idea - fixes most of the bad aji from E5, and now allows D8 or E8 without Black being able to resist.]
;B[hh]BL[349.549]
(;W[fh]WL[460.764]
;B[cg]BL[319.401]
;W[cf]WL[446.224]
;B[dg]BL[304.434]
(;W[bg]WL[438.507]C[Normally, the simple descent is most effective as Black cannot get B2 in sente.]
;B[bh]BL[241.396]
(;W[be]WL[425.541]C[Another mistake, giving Black good chances to force his life. A solid connection still kills.]
;B[ag]BL[191.138]
;W[bf]WL[420.637]
;B[ci]BL[186.067]
(;W[eg]WL[377.968]C[Your final chance to kill was here, D2 kills.]
;B[dh]BL[172.215]C[Black has his second eye.]
(;W[bc]WL[343.55]C[D8 kills the corner.]
;B[bb]BL[154.766]
;W[cd]WL[295.227]
;B[db]BL[116.393]
;W[ab]WL[257.504]
;B[ec]BL[90.519]
;W[dc]WL[252.557]
;B[cb]BL[87.509]
;W[hi]WL[240.79]
;B[af]BL[58.816]
;W[ae]WL[230.328]
;B[ah]BL[56.536]
;W[ei]WL[200.491]
;B[di]BL[53.841]
;W[eh]WL[191.477]
;B[ih]BL[33.031]
;W[ba]WL[149.21]
;B[eb]BL[10.583]
;W[ac]WL[134.952]
;B[ca]BL[1.32]
;W[aa]WL[132.006]
;B[ii]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[gi]WL[127.071]
;B[]BL[30]OB[4]
;W[]WL[127.069]TW[ad][bd][ce][de][ee][ef][ff][fi]TB[da][ea][fa][ga][ha][ia][fb][gb][hb][ib][hc][ic][id][ie][if][ig][ch][ai][bi])
(;W[db]
;B[cb]
;W[eb]
;B[bd]
;W[ca]
;B[ba]
;W[ab]))
(;W[dh]
(;B[eg]
;W[eh])
(;B[eh]
;W[eg])))
(;W[bf]
(;B[eg]
;W[ef]
;B[ah]
;W[di]C[C2 is now false.])
(;B[ah]
;W[di]C[C2 is now false])))
(;W[bf]
;B[bg]
;W[ci]C[D1 also works fine.]))
(;W[eb]
;B[fh]
;W[eh]
;B[gi]
;W[eg]C[At least you wreck Black's top edge and force him to worry about C7 now.]
;B[ec]
;W[dc]
;B[db]
;W[cb]))[/sgf-full]

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #43 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:27 am 
Gosei
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I had also promised to give reviews and/or teaching games, but I didn't realize it was going to be starting so soon. I will be gone until the middle of next week, but after that I will be available.

Also, have you considered tie-break matches to break ties? Given that it's not a meatspace tournament with time/space constraints, it's not too hard to have an additional sudden-death match to break ties.

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #44 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:32 am 
Lives with ko

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KGS: S1NK
SinK 2-0 kukula

Game 1: S1NK(w)28.5-26.0 kukula
Game 2: kukula 15.5-49.0 S1NK

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #45 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:46 am 
Gosei
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The first game was good by both sides. There were a few defensive moves that weren't strictly necessary, but otherwise, both players played well.



On the second game, if white played 28 one space to the right, it adds to his liberties while giving black less holes to push through. Suddenly, it's black who can't escape and dies. S1nk, 43 was a good move. As you correctly saw, if white got to play there, that corner group would survive, and there's no reason to be that generous. =D Again, both players played well, but the mistake at 28 decided the game.

I don't have sgf-editing capacity where I am, but I did want to add these few brief comments. If you want to find your own games, just go to http://www.gokgs.com/archives.jsp and search your own username.

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #46 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:56 am 
Dies in gote

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KGS: kukula
Chew Terr wrote:
if white played 28 one space to the right, it adds to his liberties while giving black less holes to push through.


Somehow that stupid move felt clever at the time! I was worried about black running along the edge. But he wouldn't have had the liberty to do that.

Well, beginners make beginner's mistakes! If only I can learn from them!

Thanks for the helpful analysis!

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #47 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:22 am 
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Thank you topaz and Chew Terr for the analysis. Much appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #48 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:03 am 
Tengen
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SinK wrote:
Thank you topaz and Chew Terr for the analysis. Much appreciated.


Very welcome :)

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #49 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:12 am 
Gosei
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No problem at all, it's great to see you guys working your way up. =D

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #50 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:13 pm 
Dies in gote

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kukula 2-0 noodley

Game 1: noodley(w) 22.5-35.0 kukula
Game 2: kukula 31.5-18.0 noodley

(noodley resigned game 1 but it looked settled and that was the score at the end)

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #51 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:56 am 
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[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[9]KM[5.50]TM[300]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]
PW[noodley]PB[kukula]WR[15k]BR[22k]DT[2010-08-05]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]RE[B+Resign]
;B[cg]BL[294.083]
;W[gc]WL[293.896]
;B[fg]BL[289.947]TR[dg][eg]C[The two space extension is a good solid shape.]
;W[cc]WL[269.963]TR[ec]C[This three-space extension has a bit of a weakness at the triangle point.]
;B[ge]BL[285.899]TR[ge][fg]C[Another good shape to enclose the corner.]
;W[fd]WL[256.061]TR[ec]C[White wanted to defend the weakness of the triangle point, but now with black's next move he feels behind.]
;B[ce]BL[272.346]C[The left side and the right side could be said to have been miai - that is, if black takes one, white should take the other. But now, black has gotten both sides, and so he is ahead.]
;W[fe]WL[210.404]
;B[ff]BL[260.61]
;W[he]WL[189.132]
;B[hf]BL[254.792]
;W[de]WL[129.367]
;B[df]BL[248.711]
;W[dd]WL[116.721]
;B[hd]BL[245.364]
;W[hc]WL[100.497]
(;B[gd]BL[230.857]C[This move doesn't accomplish anything - it is too slow. The cut doesn't work yet either.]
(;W[id]WL[66.165]
;B[ie]BL[226.526]
;W[ic]WL[64.954]
;B[cd]BL[220.993]
(;W[bc]WL[18.047]
;B[fc]BL[156.8]C[Nice move by black.]
;W[fb]WL[13.905]
;B[ec]BL[153.406]
;W[eb]WL[1.213]
;B[ee]BL[136.62]
;W[dc]WL[30]OW[4]
;B[ed]BL[127.304]
;W[bd]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[be]BL[119.673]
;W[ae]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[af]BL[114.679]
;W[ad]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[bg]BL[113.149]TW[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][fa][ga][ha][ia][ab][bb][cb][db][gb][hb][ib][ac]TB[fd][fe][he][bf][cf][ef][gf][if][ag][dg][eg][gg][hg][ig][ah][bh][ch][dh][eh][fh][gh][hh][ih][ai][bi][ci][di][ei][fi][gi][hi][ii]
])
(;W[db]))
(;W[bd]C[This is bigger.]
;B[be]
;W[ae]
;B[af]
;W[ad]
;B[bf]))
(;B[bd]))[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[9]KM[5.50]TM[300]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]
PW[kukula]PB[noodley]WR[22k]BR[15k]DT[2010-08-05]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]RE[W+13.50]
;B[gc]BL[294.943]
;W[gf]WL[292.629]
;B[gg]BL[288.024]
;W[fg]WL[282.009]
;B[hg]BL[268.662]
(;W[fh]WL[258.382]
;B[hf]BL[256.582]
;W[fe]WL[249.352]
;B[ge]BL[229.807]
;W[ff]WL[245.16]
(;B[hd]BL[202.453]
;W[cf]WL[239.031]
;B[ed]BL[183.426]
(;W[cd]WL[230.018]
;B[de]BL[165.29]
;W[df]WL[225.131]
;B[ce]BL[162.735]
;W[be]WL[223.42]
(;B[ee]BL[42.913]C[This is an empty triangle - bad shape. There are better ways to patch the weakness in your shape.]
;W[cc]WL[204.079]
;B[ef]BL[36.961]
;W[eg]WL[202.268]
;B[gh]BL[21.548]C[Black doesn't have time for this move - he can be cut on top.]
(;W[dh]WL[196.809]C[A bit slack. But this is the shape move if black didn't have such a bad weakness on top. The weakness may be hard to read, however.]
(;B[fd]BL[30]OB[5]C[Good.]
(;W[db]WL[190.798]
;B[eb]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[ec]WL[173.778]
;B[fc]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[dc]WL[170.455]
(;B[ea]BL[30]OB[5]LB[da:A][gi:B]C[Wrong shape. This lets white get A for free, after which he can get the final endgame move worth any points at B. See variation.]
;W[da]WL[150.433]
;B[fb]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[gi]WL[143.666]
;B[hi]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[fi]WL[141.725]
;B[dd]BL[30]OB[1]
;W[]WL[141.724]
;B[]BL[30]OB[1]TW[aa][ba][ca][ab][bb][cb][ac][bc][ad][bd][ae][af][bf][ag][bg][cg][dg][ah][bh][ch][eh][ai][bi][ci][di][ei]TB[fa][ga][ha][ia][gb][hb][ib][hc][ic][gd][id][he][ie][if][ig][hh][ih][ii])
(;B[fb]C[This move is almost (>99% with no exaggeration) always the correct move. Click forward.]
;W[gi]
;B[hi]
;W[fi]
;B[da]
;W[ca]
;B[ea]TR[ca]C[Compared to the game variation, white's territory is one point smaller, thanks to the triangle stone. This may seem trivial, but this shape will come up multiple times in every game and is quite important that you do not throw away 1 or 2 points like this every time it does.]))
(;W[eb]C[White can go this far with no problems.]))
(;B[eb]C[Better.]
;W[fd]
;B[fc]
;W[gd]
;B[he]
;W[dc]
;B[ec]))
(;W[fd]
(;B[fc]
;W[ec])
(;B[ec]
;W[fc]
;B[fb]
;W[gd]
;B[he]
;W[gb]
;B[hc]
;W[eb])))
(;B[dc])
(;B[ec]))
(;W[cc]TR[eb]C[Here seems to undercut black's territory more. You have a follow-up at the triangle. You should at least consider it.]))
(;B[fd]C[More active. Black has nothing to fear.]
;W[he]
;B[gd]C[Nothing white can do.]))
(;W[hf]C[It is often better to split your opponent into multiple groups.]
;B[fh]
;W[eg]
;B[eh]C[These crawls are necessary for life, but they are only making black one point each time. White makes more than one point each time black pushes, so black does not enjoy having to make life in this manner.]
;W[dg]
;B[hi]))[/sgf-full]

Good games guys. Hope I was helpful in some respect.

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #52 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:37 am 
Beginner

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noodley 2-0 keithlard
Game 1: noodley (B) 19.5-19.0 keithlard
Game 2: noodley (W) 33.5-9.0 keithlard

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #53 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:12 am 
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Tourney's making good progress. Since everyone has played at least one game now here's an update.

Current standings (no. games played in brackets):
1. kukula 2.0pt (3)
2. noodley 2.0pt (3)
3. Sink 1.0pt (2)
4. kiethlard 0.0pt (1)
5. TominNJ 0.0pt (1)

Games still to be played:
TominNJ vs. Sink
TominNJ vs. noodley
TominNJ vs. kiethlard
kiethlard vs. Sink
kiethlard vs. kukula

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Last edited by SinK on Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #54 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:26 am 
Tengen
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FWIW: First score in noodley vs keithlard was actually 19 - 18.5 :)

kukula 2-0 TominNJ - Scores: 69.5 - 36.5
SinK 0-2 noodley - Scores: 29.5 - 42.5
SinK 2-0 kukula - Scores: 77.5 - 41.5
kukula 2-0 noodley - Scores: 66.5 - 40.5
noodley 2-0 keithlard - Scores: 52.5 - 27.5

Player - WDL - Points - Points For - Points Against - Tiebreak Ratio

kukula - 2-0-1 - 2 - 177.5 - 154.5 - 1.15
noodley - 2-0-1 - 2 - 135.5 - 123.5 - 1.10
SinK - 1-0-1 - 1 - 107 - 84 - 1.27
TominNJ - 0-0-1 - 0 - 36.5 - 69.5 - 0.53
keithlard - 0-0-1 - 0 - 27.5 - 52.5 - 0.52

EDIT: Ah, you beat me to it SinK, noodley has another win though btw!

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Post #55 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:53 am 
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topazg wrote:
FWIW: First score in noodley vs keithlard was actually 19 - 18.5

noodley has another win though btw!


Noted and fixed.

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Post #56 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:40 am 
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I want to thank everyone for the reviews. In each 9x9 game I can try to follow the recommendations from the previous games and it's very helpful.

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Post #57 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:42 am 
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I offered to review games, but I think I didn't realize it would be 9x9. Given how hard I find that board , I am probably more suitable as a player rather than a reviewer...

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #58 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:50 am 
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If we can make changes for next month's tourney, I'd vote for using tie-break matches instead of score ratio. Playing for the smallest loss strongly discourages speculative invasions and puts a dampener on fighting spirit in general. If you're behind, it's important to learn how to invade and reduce frameworks. If you're ahead, you need to know how to defend against this. Neither will happen when both players are worrying about the scoreline.

I would also prefer a 19x19 tournament. While 9x9 is great for absolute beginners, I would always encourage people to start playing on the bigger boards as soon as possible. After all, the name of the forum isn't "Life in 9x9" :D

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Post #59 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:55 am 
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keithlard wrote:
If we can make changes for next month's tourney, I'd vote for using tie-break matches instead of score ratio. Playing for the smallest loss strongly discourages speculative invasions and puts a dampener on fighting spirit in general. If you're behind, it's important to learn how to invade and reduce frameworks. If you're ahead, you need to know how to defend against this. Neither will happen when both players are worrying about the scoreline.


Actually, I find it can have both effects. The goal is not to play for the smallest loss, it's to play for the biggest win ;) If you are losing, winning is still far more valuable than the tiebreak anyway, and if you are winning, it can encourage even more sharp / aggressive play. However, I agree it does strongly affect play style, and I think this is important to consider when choosing tiebreakers - it's a decision that needs to be made deliberately.

keithlard wrote:
I would also prefer a 19x19 tournament. While 9x9 is great for absolute beginners, I would always encourage people to start playing on the bigger boards as soon as possible. After all, the name of the forum isn't "Life in 9x9" :D


Certainly at least 13x13 makes a lot of sense, as none of you are playing like absolute beginners :)

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 Post subject: Re: The First Forum Double Digit Kyu Tourney
Post #60 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:03 am 
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I find it irritating that the score is used for something else than determining the winner of the game. I think that it is an important lesson to learn that the absolute value of the score difference is irrelevant.

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