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 Post subject: Learning sequences
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:07 pm 
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The wonderful thing about online go is that we get to see all sorts of information that we simply would not have access to otherwise, including lots of high-level joseki sequences. The whole idea of joseki is that every move has a very important reason for being played (or many!). If you don't have a good understanding of the purpose of each move in the sequence, then an opponent can take advantage by playing an unfamiliar move.

That said, if a player asks about a sequence, then how do you respond?
-Let the player read it out and give commentary.
-Give the player a few suggestions of immediate moves, and then let them read it out and give commentary.
-Show the player a few lines of play with commentary.

I used to think the third option was always best, and that seems to be what most askers want, but I don't know that it's even a good thing anymore. When you give the player an answer (or even several) without letting them discover the reasons why that is the answer, then that may open a weakness in their game. They won't know how to respond to unmentioned variations, they won't know how to respond to overplay, they won't know when to apply the sequence, they won't know how to respond to moves near the shape later in the game, etc.

Even with commentary, doesn't it only help the player if they have internalized the complete thought process and were to play a game that is remarkably similar? It seems like you are only as strong as your reading so memorizing any sequence is a shortcut that handicaps in the long run.

Do you agree with this? For more experienced players, how often do you go into "sequence autopilot" vs. actively reading the board position? Thanks for any responses.

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Post #2 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:10 pm 
Honinbo
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As always, it depends. On the level of the asker.
And the level of the askee.
Whenever it comes to teaching (education) -- communication in general --
there's no one-size-fit all. We must look at the individuals involved.
Case by case.

On a far end of the spectrum, two top pros analyze a sequence.

On another end, a 20k and a 30k discuss another sequence.

A beginner who is just introduced to the concept of atari
is slightly different than a pro who can read 25 moves deep.

With any group of people, there'll be some kind of distribution curve.
Are we talking to a 6-year-old child, 1-dan ?
Or a 60-year-old person who's been 5kyu the past 20 years ?
Who is the audience ? Who is the explainer ?
So many factors.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning sequences
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:06 pm 
Honinbo

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Tonkleton wrote:
For more experienced players, how often do you go into "sequence autopilot" vs. actively reading the board position?


If you don't memorize joseki, you can't go into autopilot. :)

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Post #4 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:23 pm 
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Quote:
If you don't memorize joseki, you can't go into autopilot. :)
Memorization in itself is not the problem.

Rather, it is the combination of:
  • Rote memorization with little or no understanding of the meaning;
  • Lack of critical thinking (during learning and/or an actual game)

When Go Seigen said, "Forget josekis; open your mind" (or words to that effect),
he was not talking to beginners, kyu people, or even low dans.
He was talking to pros or people close to pro level;
they have already digested and internalized literally millions of shapes, variations, and sequences, including josekis.
They can read, they can fight, they already know many of the standard sequences.
They need to learn to un-learn the rigidity and play freely -- that's what Go Seigen meant.

If someone goes into auto-pilot, yes, it means they have memorized something;
but it also means they've suspended their critical thinking,
or, they never understood the sequence to begin with (or both) -- that's the real problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning sequences
Post #5 Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:59 am 
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For my part, I don't think that memorizing joseki is a problem at all. :razz:
_ For one, if you're able to replay a joseki then you must have understood something about it, even if just simple things like: 'I block here' and 'I extends there'. Because I don't think we can just remember 'random moves'... So memorizing joseki helps you to have a feel for the usual attacking and defending moves, and for good shape, even if you didn't understand YET the reasoning behind each move.
_ Secondly, if your opponent lets you play the joseki you memorized, then you can see its effect on the board and play a middle game which resulted from it (and from what happened everywhere else of course). If you play this joseki again and again, you'll gain some experience with it and will know at some point what to expect from it, to what global context it is suited, etc. In short, you'll learn when and why to play this joseki -which is a big deal.
_ Lastly, if your opponent play something you didn't learn, either from another joseki or because he made an honest mistake :lol: or a devious overplay :evil: , then it will be the occasion for improving your understanding of the joseki, by dealing with the situation the best you can, and if things went wrong, by reviewing it afterwards.

In my opinion, memorizing some joseki can be the first step into understanding it, in which case it wouldn't be a problem but a necessary stage of the learning process for some people.
That being said, there are others out there that don't study joseki at all but seem to come up with their own 'standard sequences', the tactics they came up with after playing many many games.
There are also people that 'really' study joseki, wondering why to play this move instead of that one, etc.

In short, there are many many go players who improve their game many many different ways, and that should be okay as long as it is suited to their personalities.

Memorizing joseki as a first step seems quite normal to me.
But then, I'm one of those guys who cry when the opponent doesn't play joseki :grumpy:

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 Post subject: Re: Learning sequences
Post #6 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:37 pm 
Oza

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My personal take on joseki is to try and emphasize options and miai when explaining them, since I think this gives a good foundation for considering unknown sequences as well. It does no good to memorize a sequence and play it in a terrible environment for it, or to panic when your opponent deviates. I'd rather someone be thinking "well, normally he should block here and I'll extend there, but he played there instead, so I'll look at where he should have blocked" than that they are lost or that their opponent didn't play "the joseki" so they have to punish and end up in a terrible situation.

As for sequences, it depends on the audience. The stronger they are, the deeper you go. To some degree, though, I feel that the specifics of long sequences aren't very meaningful in a quick review. It's better to suggest that this or that is possible, and here's one potential outcome, to plant the seed of considering that move into their subconscious. I know when I hear someone talk about a joseki and go through a 20 move sequence, if it's not a clear one-way street there's no way I'll remember it and I often have lots of questions about different points in it. Better, in my mind, to say something like "it's complicated, but black can kill white here, or live there" or whatever.

On a personal note, when I play I either look at a position and see a limited number of candidate moves that are viable, or I don't. When I don't, it's like my head explodes because there are too many options to read any of them to any great depth, or even more than a few moves, with any accuracy. I would rather be able to better generate candidates and have a vague sense of what they might mean to start reading from, than to remember specific longer sequences.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning sequences
Post #7 Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:39 am 
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If I learn joseki or other sequences I always try to ask myself where I would play myself before I look at the actual next move. Then I compare my move and the next move and if they don't fit each other (which happens more often than it doesn't) I try to see where the difference is and why it might be better to play that move (and if I fail to see the reasoning I ask stronger guys like the people here ;) ). This way I'm forced to put some reasoning into every move and force me to understand what I'm playing. It is also much easier to remember a joseki correctly this way if you understand each move.

With the same reasoning I try to teach someone who asks me about a sequence. Like:
Asker: Can you tell me about this sequence
Me: Sure. First, what would be your move?
Asker: Uhhh... Probably that one *shows a move*
Me: I see, that is correct. How do you expect the other player to answer (or) I see, what if I tell you that I would play there? *show him the correct move* Do you see a difference to your move?
Asker: Sure, now that you show me that move it seems logical because... (or) Nope, no clue
Me: Well, you see, it works better because...

I do that no matter what rank the asker has because I think it is important to not just do a monologue but to develop a dialog where the asker can feel some kind of accomplishment instead of listening to a long explanation were you can easily get bored

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 Post subject: Re: Learning sequences
Post #8 Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:40 am 
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EdLee wrote:
As always, it depends. On the level of the asker.
And the level of the askee.
Whenever it comes to teaching (education) -- communication in general --
there's no one-size-fit all. We must look at the individuals involved.
Case by case.
I knew I would get a sensible answer from Ed that shows I need to think about the problem differently. :)

Bill Spight wrote:
If you don't memorize joseki, you can't go into autopilot. :)
I'm trying to discern if this is advocating for or against memorizing joseki/autopilot. Not succeeding, but at least I have a thought to add to this one: one who plays blitz games is practically forced into autopilot. :D

EdLee wrote:
Memorization in itself is not the problem.

Rather, it is the combination of:
  • Rote memorization with little or no understanding of the meaning;
  • Lack of critical thinking (during learning and/or an actual game)
Indeed, I'm starting to come around to the fact that balance is key (this seems like a fundamental lesson of Go). I can see how even rote memorization is useful once your knowledge is strong enough. It's not worth the brain power to read a life-or-death problem if you know it's status by heart. On the same token, you also need to engage the critical thinking as the board position develops around the group or in case your opponent sacrifices for profit elsewhere. You have to conserve your attention for when it's needed! (It's just really hard to always know when those times are :D )

Celebrir wrote:
If I learn joseki or other sequences I always try to ask myself where I would play myself before I look at the actual next move. Then I compare my move and the next move and if they don't fit each other (which happens more often than it doesn't) I try to see where the difference is and why it might be better to play that move (and if I fail to see the reasoning I ask stronger guys like the people here ;) ).
Excellent! I really like that learning strategy, Celebrir. It emphasizes the points where your instincts differ from the preferred line of play, and reinforces an understanding of the "correct" move contrary to your own. I must try this out next time I study. :)

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Post #9 Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:37 pm 
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It is really important to study joseki in context. Many joseki books and data-bases on line, just show the moves in one corner so you won't learn from that when one variation might be preferable to another one, both joseki. The two volumes of Whole Board Thinking in Joseki by Yilun Yang look at all the joseki in a whole board context.

Consider these two joseki sequences:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B corner
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . 7 . . .
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B corner
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 , 7 . . . .
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


To use these joseki sequences properly you need to know why you might choose one over the other. Usually the first sequence ends with the top side pretty much played out. The second one begs for Black to play again at some later time on the upper side.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning sequences
Post #10 Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:04 am 
Judan

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Does that book mention this one, which was not a joseki according to the sources I learnt from (which is quite recent, only 10 years playing Go) but is currently popular with pros in certain situations?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B bigger but thinner corner
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . 7 . .
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Learning sequences
Post #11 Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:34 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Does that book mention this one, which was not a joseki according to the sources I learnt from (which is quite recent, only 10 years playing Go) but is currently popular with pros in certain situations?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B bigger but thinner corner
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . 7 . .
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Maybe we should open a new thread for this? I would be very intrested in this variation and at which positions you play this or one of the above.

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