It is currently Mon Mar 18, 2024 11:43 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 74 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Territory inside territory question.
Post #1 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 12:54 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 29
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Im very new to this game. My grandfather and I have been playing for about a month now and there is something we aren't sure about.

If white has a territory and black creates a territory inside of White's territory does Black's territory remain prisoners or does he get those territory points. (Assuming that both players pass and it is the end of the game.)

Thanks.


Attachments:
Screenshot_2018-05-01-15-45-27-1.png
Screenshot_2018-05-01-15-45-27-1.png [ 210.85 KiB | Viewed 12858 times ]


Last edited by Joe621 on Tue May 01, 2018 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #2 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 1:36 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Hi Joe621, Welcome. :) Good question.

Assume territory scoring and 0.0 komi for the following diagrams.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 1
$$ -------------------
$$ | O O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | O O X . . . X O |
$$ | O O X . . . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | . O O O O O O O |
$$ | O . O O O O O O |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Black has 6 points, White has 2 points.
( Important: both B and W are alive on Board 1. )

However, if Black is dead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 2
$$ -----------------
$$ | O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | O O X . . X O |
$$ | O O X . . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | . O O O O O O |
$$ | O . O O O O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]
Then White has ( 2 + 28 ) = 30 points; Black has 0 points.
( Each dead :black: stone on the board counts as 2 points for White. )

Important: the Life-and-Death status of every group on the board, at the end of the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 3
$$ -------------------
$$ | O O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | O O X . X . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | . O O O O O O O |
$$ | O . O O O O O O |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Board 3: White has 2 points, Black also has 2 points.

If you come across other shapes and boards with questions, please feel free to post them here. People will try to answer. :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re:
Post #3 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:14 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 29
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
EdLee wrote:
Hi Joe621, Welcome. :) Good question.

Assume territory scoring and 0.0 komi for the following diagrams.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 1
$$ -------------------
$$ | O O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | O O X . . . X O |
$$ | O O X . . . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | . O O O O O O O |
$$ | O . O O O O O O |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Black has 6 points, White has 2 points.
( Important: both B and W are alive on Board 1. )

However, if Black is dead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 2
$$ -----------------
$$ | O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | O O X . . X O |
$$ | O O X . . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | . O O O O O O |
$$ | O . O O O O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]
Then White has ( 2 + 28 ) = 30 points; Black has 0 points.
( Each dead :black: stone on the board counts as 2 points for White. )

Important: the Life-and-Death status of every group on the board, at the end of the game.

If you come across other shapes and boards with questions, please feel free to post them here. People will try to answer. :)

Ah, so if black is capable of forming two eyes then even with white surrounding Black's territory Black still gets points for that territory?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #4 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:19 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Hi Joe621,
Quote:
if black is capable of forming two eyes then even with white surrounding Black's territory Black still gets points for that territory?
If a Black group has 2 real eyes, then this group is unconditionally alive -- it doesn't matter where it is located on the board -- Black keeps her points for this group, yes.

However, if a Black group doesn't have 2 real eyes, then it depends. There are different scenarios; we need to see the exact board. :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory inside territory question.
Post #5 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:27 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 29
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Thank you. That helped me a lot. I was reading elsewhere and people were literally arguing back and fourth about it. I'm glad I found these forums

Thanks again.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #6 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:32 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Hi Joe, You're very welcome.

Go is very tricky sometimes.

People have very heated discussions here, too! :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #7 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:20 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1589
Liked others: 886
Was liked: 527
Rank: AGA 3k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Joe621 wrote:
Ah, so if black is capable of forming two eyes then even with white surrounding Black's territory Black still gets points for that territory?

Rather than say "If Black is capable of forming two eyes" I would say "If White is not able to kill Black". A lot of people get hung up early on with the two eyes thing and forget that the rules of the game don't actually refer to eyes at all. It is possible to be unkillable without having two eyes.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory inside territory question.
Post #8 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:52 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1581
Location: Hong Kong
Liked others: 54
Was liked: 544
GD Posts: 1292
And then you have things like seki and related complications
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | X X X . . .
$$ | O O X . . .
$$ | . O X , . .
$$ | O O X X X X
$$ | . X O O O X
$$ | X . O . O X
$$ +-------------[/go]


Chosei

Hanezeki

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory inside territory question.
Post #9 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:34 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 29
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
tchan001 wrote:
And then you have things like seki and related complications
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | X X X . . .
$$ | O O X . . .
$$ | . O X , . .
$$ | O O X X X X
$$ | . X O O O X
$$ | X . O . O X
$$ +-------------[/go]


Chosei

Hanezeki



Okay so if that was the end of the game how would you count the score, who gets what?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #10 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:40 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Hi Joe,

Then it depends on which scoring system you're using, area scoring v. territory scoring. ( re: assumption in post 2 :) )
There are nuances; Sensei's Library probably has some nice discussions.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re:
Post #11 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:41 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 29
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
EdLee wrote:
Hi Joe621, Welcome. :) Good question.

Assume territory scoring and 0.0 komi for the following diagrams.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 1
$$ -------------------
$$ | O O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | O O X . . . X O |
$$ | O O X . . . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | . O O O O O O O |
$$ | O . O O O O O O |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Black has 6 points, White has 2 points.
( Important: both B and W are alive on Board 1. )

However, if Black is dead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 2
$$ -----------------
$$ | O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | O O X . . X O |
$$ | O O X . . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | . O O O O O O |
$$ | O . O O O O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]
Then White has ( 2 + 28 ) = 30 points; Black has 0 points.
( Each dead :black: stone on the board counts as 2 points for White. )

Important: the Life-and-Death status of every group on the board, at the end of the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 3
$$ -------------------
$$ | O O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | O O X . X . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O |
$$ | . O O O O O O O |
$$ | O . O O O O O O |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Board 3: White has 2 points, Black also has 2 points.

If you come across other shapes and boards with questions, please feel free to post them here. People will try to answer. :)



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 2
$$ -----------------
$$ | O O O O O O O |
$$ | O . X X X X O |
$$ | O . X . . X O |
$$ | O . X . . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | . O O . . . O |
$$ | O . O O O O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]


Okay probably a stupid question but what if the second example you showed looks like this ^

Would the black still be dead? W:36 B:0?


Last edited by Joe621 on Tue May 01, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re:
Post #12 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:44 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 29
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
EdLee wrote:
Hi Joe,

Then it depends on which scoring system you're using, area scoring v. territory scoring. ( re: assumption in post 2 :) )
There are nuances; Sensei's Library probably has some nice discussions.

Territory scoring is all I know, so territory.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #13 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 8:43 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Joe621 wrote:
EdLee wrote:
Hi Joe,

Then it depends on which scoring system you're using, area scoring v. territory scoring. ( re: assumption in post 2 :) )
There are nuances; Sensei's Library probably has some nice discussions.

Territory scoring is all I know, so territory.


Since you and your grandfather are bootstrapping yourselves, I suggest that you play so that you can keep playing the game out and capture dead stones without penalty. Just play until all dead stones are captured. Area scoring lets you do that, and it is not difficult to learn. :)

Another go game that in effect uses territory scoring is the Capture Game. You keep playing until somebody captures one stone (at least), and that player wins. That is like territory scoring because you can reach a point where each player has only surrounded points left without having captured a stone, and the players may have to start filling their own territory, so that whoever has more territory wins.

Once you are used to the Capture Game, you can move on to Capture 2 (where the winner has to capture at least 2 stones) and then Capture 4. Capture 4 starts to look like regular go. :D

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 2
$$ -----------------
$$ | O O O O O O O |
$$ | O . X X X X O |
$$ | O . X . . X O |
$$ | O . X . . X O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | . O O . . . O |
$$ | O . O O O O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]


For instance, in Capture 4 on this board the Black stones are dead. If White plays first the play might go like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Capture 4
$$ -----------------
$$ | O O O O O O O |
$$ | O 1 X X X X O |
$$ | O 2 X 7 8 X O |
$$ | O 3 X 9 0 X O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | . O O 4 5 6 O |
$$ | O . O O O O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]

Both players start off playing outside the Black eye.
:b10: captures 2 stones. Play continues.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Capture 4
$$ -----------------
$$ | O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | O X X 1 X X O |
$$ | O O X 2 X X O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X O |
$$ | O . O O O O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]


:b12: captures one more stone, for a total of 3 stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Capture 4
$$ -----------------
$$ | O O O O O O O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | O X X 3 X X O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | O O X X X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X O |
$$ | O . O O O O O |
$$ -----------------[/go]


But then :w13: captures 18 Black stones, to win.

You could keep going, and play Capture 7, and so on, but Capture 4 gives you a basic idea of which stones are dead or not. It's still different from regular go, though.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory inside territory question.
Post #14 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 8:55 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 29
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Thanks Bill,
I have to look more into the capture game. The rule book that came with my go set did not explain that, it was very vague.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #15 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 9:23 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Hi Bill, I didn't know or think of capture-2 or capture-n, until now.
Nice to add to the bag of goodies for day 1. Thanks. :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #16 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 9:25 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Hi Joe,
Quote:
I have to look more into the capture game. The rule book that came with my go set did not explain that, it was very vague.
The capture game is great for your phase, because you don't need to play out all the way to the end, or deal with scoring. It's like a 'quick draw' or 'sudden death' version of Go. Of course, it's not Go, but it's a nice 'warm-up' exercise.

Here's a free, HTML5-based browser version robot, regular Go:

Cosumi

You can pick various board sizes.
Top right corner: '1 Click' - '2 Click' toggles:
'2 Click' means to confirm your move with a second tap,
which is good for small phone screens. :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #17 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:12 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Quote:
Would the black still be dead? W:36 B:0?
Good question. Yes, and yes. :tmbup:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory inside territory question.
Post #18 Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 1:26 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 29
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
One more question regarding territory. Is it considered a territory when there is all diagonals. Like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 1
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #19 Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 2:18 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Hi Joe,

Good question.
Your :black: shape is un-settled. It depends on what happens next.

Example 1: B dead; zero points for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . . . . |
$$ | X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . |
$$ | 1 . X O . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . |
$$ | X . O . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Example 2: B alive, with 3 points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w2:, :w4:, :w6: tenuki
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . . . . |
$$ | X 3 O . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . |
$$ | 1 . X O . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . |
$$ | X 5 O . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory inside territory question.
Post #20 Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 2:29 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 29
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
So a "territory" with all diagonals is not a real territory?

What about with just one diagonal like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 74 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group