Still unsettled shape -- depends on who goes first here:

B dead, zero points for B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . |
$$ | 1 . X O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . |
$$ | X X . O . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

B lives with 3 points:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . |
$$ | 1 . X O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . |
$$ | X X . O . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

It's not about diagonals ; it has to do with the overall shape.
More examples very helpful. Keep posting.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X B . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Okay so this would be considered a territory? ^

But this not:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Hi Joe,

Your two shapes in post 23 are identical, in terms of life-and-death.
The stone makes no difference; it doesn't affect the life-and-death or points.

What matters is who goes first:

Left: B dead, 0 points for B
Right: B alive, 3 points for B

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X . O . . X X |
$$ | . X B O . B X . |
$$ | 1 . X O . X . 2 |
$$ | . X X O . X X . |
$$ | X X . O . . X X |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Left: B dead, 0 points for B
Right: B alive, 3 points for B

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X . O . . X X |
$$ | . X . O . . X . |
$$ | 1 . X O . X . 2 |
$$ | . X X O . X X . |
$$ | X X . O . . X X |
$$ -------------------[/go]

I know what you mean. Depends on whether black or white plays at A3 correct? That would determine whether or not black lives or dies. If white plays A3 black dies etc.


Obviously neither player would let this board emd like this but I was just wondering if black would get territory points for this if the game was finished:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X B . . . . . . |
$$ | . X a . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . |
$$ | X B . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

If the game ends here, B has 4 points locally;
the (a) spot is irrelevant to the 4 points.
But the spots are relevant to the 4 points.
( See also post 28, below. )

Hi joe621,
The rules and the strategy are two different things.

The rules tells that a territory are a set of connected empty intersections (horizontally or vertically) that are in contact with stones of one colour only (horizontally or vertically). So, in your example, all the intersections on the board are black's territory (inside AND outside), since there are no white stones !

The strategy is another matter, and we use to take shortcuts and tell that a given shape is, or is not territory, because we can see in advance if it is going to be captured or not, and if it can keeps its inner space completely free of enemy stones, thus turning it into "territory" according to the strict definition of the rule.

The British Go Associations has a lot of online resources. If the rules of play that you got with your set are unclear, maybe it can help you : https://britgo.org/howtoplaygo#s1

Hi Joe,

This may clear up some of your uncertainties.

Examples:
In all 3 cases, W has 12 points.

Unsettled shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | O . X X X X X X X X X O |
$$ | O X . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ ---------------------------[/go]

With , B has 8 points:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | O 1 X X X X X X X X X O |
$$ | O X . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ ---------------------------[/go]

With and , B has 7 points:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | O 1 X X X X X X X X X O |
$$ | O X 2 . . . . . . . X O |
$$ ---------------------------[/go]

( See also why the stones affect B's points, in post 26 above. )

Other people have answered this particular question, but I just want to keep emphasizing that

• territory consists of the empty spaces surrounded by live stones;
• stones are alive if they can't be captured;
• if your opponent thinks your stones are dead, that means he can capture them, and you have the right to make him prove it.

That's it. Nothing about eyes, or rules about "all diagonals" or "one diagonal". You and your opponent should just play it out. You will learn a lot more from that than by memorizing the status-according-to-knowledgable-players of various shapes.

As others have indicated, your questions can be answered by playing the positions out.

So the thing to do is to play everything out. Either by area scoring or perhaps by a form of the Capture Game. Then things will become clear. Or at least clearer.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I do not recommend capture go. Not even for beginners. Yes, capture go is a fun game, but from a teaching point of view, it is not advisable, IMHO. Why to have beginners learn capture go (which isn't 'the real thing') when they then have to 'unlearn' it to play regular go?
Bill Spight: I also think you contradict yourself. You introduce Capture Go as being simple as easy, and then complicate and confuse people by going forward to capture 2 and capture 4.
Also, as you know, the essence of go is not in capturing.
I think beginners are best helped if they are not confused with capture go. It is a different game. Remember: they are already confused about eyes and eye shape, scoring methods and the like. Better to teach them proper go (IMHO).

( Hi Joe, here's the said heated discussion. )

From my experience, there's no one-size-fit-all for beginners, or for everyone for that matter. Capture Go is good, from my experience, for many beginners. Obviously, I cannot say "for all".

Both human learning and machine learning involve constant Un-learning, as well. ( Even AlphaZero had to constantly un-learn previous "bad" moves as it trained itself over millions of games. )

Many of the so-called josekis the past few hundred ( or even thousand ) years, painstakingly developed by top human pros, were now shown to be wrong by AlphaGo over two years ago.

Even top pros have to unlearn a huge chunk since AlphaGo.

Sorry if some people had "non-good" experiences with Capture Go for beginners. I wasn't there, so I don't know what happened. I can only speculate the "problem" lied not with Capture Go itself, but with the teaching.

Beginners ( and most of us, too, for that matter ) are naturally confused about a great many things. The teacher tries to minimize the confusion. Capture Go is merely one tool, among many. Its effectiveness depends on the skills of the user. From my experience, Capture Go doesn't necessarily, inherently confuse beginners; bad teaching does.

Questions:
- In an un-supervised environment, how is Capture Go for beginners? I don't know; I don't have the data.

- With good guidance, how is Capture Go for beginners? My empirical
evidence: I've had only good experiences with Capture Go with hundreds of beginners, over the past 15 years.

Hello Joe621,
Welcome here. Good questions, good examples. People here are mostly (slightly, like myself) more experienced. Problem for more experienced players is they may have tended to forget the earliest beginnings. I hope you won't get confused about the replies given here, all with good intentions.

Another thing: go is what some say is a total, open information game.
In this regard, I have a question: does your grandfather also read this forum and this topic?

I hope you and your grandfather will enjoy the game many times, for a long time.

sybob, I used to think pretty much as you do. Despite the fact that Capture Go has been used for a long time as an introduction to go. But then I ran across a site that uses Capture-1, Capture-2, etc., as way of playing games that are more and more like regular go. I also learned, in part through study, in part through play, that Capture Go is a very strategic game. It does not teach bad habits, like simply trying to capture a stone or stones. It is, in fact, a game of territory, where the player with more territory will win, because the player with less territory will have to either play inside the opponent's territory and lose a stone or stones, or put one of his own groups in atari and lose that way. The players do not even have to play the game out to the bitter end; they can stop and count territory to determine the winner.



Right. The scoring method of Capture-n is obvious, and, as I illustrated with Capture-4, the players can learn that the square 4 eye is only one eye. They can also learn that the Farmer's Hat eye can be one eye or three. They can also learn that diagonally connected stones can be captured if they are not defended. Etc. The Capture games avoid and/or remedy such confusions.

As n increases, Capture-n becomes more like regular go. Capture-4 is already pretty close, so that the transition to regular go is fairly easy. Capture-1, Capture-2, and Capture-4 (and Capture-7 if people want to try it) are stepping stones to regular go.

As I said, I once thought that Capture Go taught bad habits, but now I understand it better and appreciate it more. It is an established way of introducing people to go.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Well worth repeating.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Playing the Capture Game with an adult friend of mine, he found the following play in a similar position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Capture game seki
$$ ------------
$$ | 1 . O X . .
$$ | . O O X . .
$$ | O O X X . .
$$ | X X X , . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]

makes a seki in the Capture Game. And my friend figured that out by himself. I did not have to teach him about seki.

Furthermore, in Capture-4 if White has not captured a Black stone, kills the White group, as it does in regular go, because Black can sacrifice three stones to capture it. This is something that Black can discover for himself, just as he discovered the seki. (BTW, it is also why I skip Capture-3.) This illustrates how Capture-4 is closer to regular go than Capture-1, Capture-2, and Capture-3.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Hi Bill,

Tonight at Coffee Bean, I tried capture-2 for the first time with a walk-in beginner, on 9x9.( They just closed 7 mins. ago at 10 pm. )

Okay so we just finished a game tonight are the intersections highlighted in red territory points?

Thanks.

Yes.

Territory is empty space surrounded by live^(*) stones of one color.



^(*)Live: cannot be removed from the board by the opponent.

Could you possibly show me where the wall is surrounding those territory points?