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 Post subject: question about seki exercise in go book
Post #1 Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:48 pm 
Beginner

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Hi,
I think this exercise in "baduk for beginners" (Kim Sung-rae) (p 140, Spanish edition) is not correct:
Black moves: Find the movement that creates seki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B "baduk for beginners" (Kim Sung-rae) p 140 \nFind the movement that creates seki
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . X . . . . .
$$ | O O X , . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . . .
$$ | O . O O X . . . .
$$ | . X . O . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


And the provided solution is:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W "baduk for beginners" (Kim Sung-rae) p 140: solution?
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . X . . . . .
$$ | O O X , . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . . .
$$ | O B O O X . . . .
$$ | . X . O . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


But I can't see the solution at all... I mean, then White can end up with two eyes? :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W "baduk for beginners" (Kim Sung-rae) p 140: retort
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . X . . . . .
$$ | O O X , . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . . .
$$ | O B O O X . . . .
$$ | 3 X 1 O 2 . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


May be the diagram is incorrect in this edition?
I tried also with the stone at D1 changed to black, but then Black always win with B2, so no seki - for example (if White doesn't play inside, Black C1 will win):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W changed problem
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . X . . . . .
$$ | O O X , . . . . .
$$ | 1 O O X X . . . .
$$ | O B O O X . . . .
$$ | 4 X 2 X . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


Anyone has this book and can search for the forth exercise in chapter "4.8 Seki" ?
Any help is welcome, thanks

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 Post subject: Re: question about seki exercise in go book
Post #2 Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:18 pm 
Judan

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My guess is there is the following stone missing:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B "baduk for beginners" (Kim Sung-rae) p 140 \nFind the movement that creates seki
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . X . . . . .
$$ | O O X , . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . . .
$$ | O . O O X . . . .
$$ | . X . O B . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by: senetsomed
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Post #3 Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:36 pm 
Honinbo
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Hi senetsomed,
Nice find.

@ the club yesterday:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :bc: dead group; B aji
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | X X . X . . . .
$$ | O O X X O O O O
$$ | . O O O B B B ?
$$ | O X . O B . . ?
$$ | . X . O B . . ?
$$ --------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: question about seki exercise in go book
Post #4 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:22 pm 
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Thanks Uberdude, you're right, it seems the most plausible "patch".

I think I didn't find it, because it is kind of a seki with cycle, because after black B2,
white can play A1, forcing black to play C1 capturing, forcing white to play A2 to capture A3,
returning then to the position after the initial black B2.

I don't know if this makes this a "proper" seki, because couldn't this sequence be interlaced with other intermediate plays maybe "losing" this seki? May be this is usual with seki's as it is with ko's?

I do not know: I am still at the middle of this beginners' book ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: question about seki exercise in go book
Post #5 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:19 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
My guess is there is the following stone missing:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B "baduk for beginners" (Kim Sung-rae) p 140 \nFind the movement that creates seki
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . X . . . . .
$$ | O O X , . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . . .
$$ | O . O O X . . . .
$$ | . X . O B . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


Right !
In the English edition, page 148 (4th problem of the chapter about seki), this stone is indeed present.

Anyway, you are lucky to have this excellent book translated in your language. Its only weakness is the introduction to the principle of two eyes, that is confusing.


This post by Pio2001 was liked by: senetsomed
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 Post subject: Re: question about seki exercise in go book
Post #6 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:16 pm 
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thank you very much Pio2001 for the material confirmation! :tmbup:

So, it is a "proper" seki, even having a "cycle" of mutual attack and defense in it?

PS:
Yeah, the book is good: with it I'm starting to understand the game after various previous unfruitful attempts :-?

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 Post subject: Re: question about seki exercise in go book
Post #7 Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:35 am 
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senetsomed wrote:
So, it is a "proper" seki, even having a "cycle" of mutual attack and defense in it?


Yes, because
-White can't kill Black
-Black can't kill White
...and in the end, we don't know whose territory are the intersections between the black and white stones. They are thus considered as a "neutral zone".

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 Post subject: Re: question about seki exercise in go book
Post #8 Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 11:49 am 
Honinbo

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senetsomed wrote:
So, it is a "proper" seki, even having a "cycle" of mutual attack and defense in it?


Depends on what you mean by proper. ;) Some rules, such as AGA, Ing, and Chinese, require a rule to prevent endless repetition in such cases. In Korean and Japanese rules White loses 1 pt. in each cycle, so if White keeps on playing the cycle, eventually Black can win the game by allowing White to capture the two Black stones. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: question about seki exercise in go book
Post #9 Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:31 pm 
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Thanks for the answers !
I didn't know about the AGA rules... it is very interesting that "Repeated Board Position" rule...
I have tooooo much to learn :-?

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