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Please help with this exercise II
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16717
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Author:  Jika [ Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:17 am ]
Post subject:  Please help with this exercise II

Hi,

I've played through this multiple times on the screen and played out variants on a board.

I can't find a way to capture white.
He either escapes to the top/centre or black gets even captured with white surviving with 2 eyes!

The two pictures show
a) the start
Attachment:
exerc 9 I.png
exerc 9 I.png [ 21.07 KiB | Viewed 1670 times ]

b) the only moves the website will accept (before I run into errors)
Attachment:
exerc 9 II.png
exerc 9 II.png [ 21.22 KiB | Viewed 1670 times ]


Could someone
a) tell me how many moves are needed (one move meaning b-w, right??) to solve this (so I can keep trying)
b) make an SGF so I can look at it later before going insane?
(I've tried skipping this exercise, but the website won't let me.)

Thanks!

Author:  Uberdude [ Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please help with this exercise II

Your move 1 looks good, but for 3 try something a bit more tesuji-ish.

Author:  jlt [ Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please help with this exercise II

I suppose you played :b3: at D2. Did you try other moves for :b3:? Which ones?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . 1 . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]


(Edit: Uberdude posted while I was typing this message.)

Author:  Jika [ Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please help with this exercise II

@ Uberdude: Since I don't know any tesuji, I don't get your hint - sorry!

@ jlt:
I've tried letting white connect while trying to block, such as 4-4, 5-4.
Oh. 5-3 it is.
I've tried absurd moves, just going through all options, but obviously not that one...
:roll:

Sorry for bothering you!!
I spent 1 hour in vain on this, and now it seems so obvious...

Author:  EdLee [ Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:08 am ]
Post subject: 

Hi Jika,

If it's :white: to play, do you have any candidate(s) for :w4: ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: pass
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . 1 . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: pass
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X 2 4 . . . .
$$ | . . X . . 1 . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]
The bamboo joint is not the only candidate for :w4:,
but maybe you spot it.
This is one way to find :b3: ;
this doesn't always work, but it's good to keep in mind.
Quote:
Since I don't know any tesuji,
Maybe you gain some insight to the bamboo joint; this is one way to enlarge your tool box.

Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please help with this exercise II

Jika wrote:
@ Uberdude: Since I don't know any tesuji, I don't get your hint - sorry!

@ jlt:
I've tried letting white connect while trying to block, such as 4-4, 5-4.
Oh. 5-3 it is.
I've tried absurd moves, just going through all options, but obviously not that one...
:roll:

Sorry for bothering you!!
I spent 1 hour in vain on this, and now it seems so obvious...


You are learning, Grasshopper. :D :clap: :clap: :clap:

Author:  Jika [ Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please help with this exercise II

@EdLee:

I'm not sure I understand your question, but if I was white I would want to connect the 2 groups, so I (black) tried either to stop white doing that, or getting him after that (by playing 4-4 and such, but not seeing 5-3).
Do you mean that 5-3 should be obvious because it has power over 4-4 as well as 5-2, so white connecting does not give him too many options?
(Sorry if I misunderstand.)

@BillSpight:
Baby steps... at the moment I'm enjoying myself feeling stupid :lol:

Author:  EdLee [ Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:39 am ]
Post subject: 

Hi Jika,
Quote:
if I was white I would want to connect the 2 groups,
Baby steps: How many ways do you see for :white: to accomplish this ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . X . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]
Did you consider these candidates ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . X 1 . X . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . 1 X . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X O 1 . . . .
$$ | . . X . . X . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . X . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . 1 . . .
$$ | . . X . . X . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]

Author:  Jika [ Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Please help with this exercise II

@EdLee:

Sorry, I did not realize there was a diagram added ("show/hide") to your first post.

Regarding white connecting, I have only met the direct connection so far (which would be the first solution in your post above?), and maybe a "hanging" connection (second solution above?).

(The other diagrams look... interesting. To me (now) they do not make any sense, but I hope to see what you mean one day. I'll have a look in the use of bamboo joint at SL.)

Thanks for spending so much time on my question!

Author:  EdLee [ Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:10 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
they do not make any sense, but I hope to see what you mean one day.
The one day can be today. :)
You can grab some stones and study the shapes when you're free now. :study: :)

Author:  Jika [ Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Please help with this exercise II

@ EdLee / others:
How do I do that?

I've started learning shape by choosing one on SL and placing variants on a separate board (just a photocopy paper "board").
So, I put the tiger's mouth there, hoping I would memorize it if I saw it every day.

But now, while I remember the shape, I still do not know how to apply it.

I have been practising ladders and geta on 321go, but for geta especially there seem to be several variants.

How would you recommend I "play around" with the diagrams you posted?

Put the bamboo joint on the board to memorize it, or put the different positions you posted on the board and see what happens when applied to the exercise that triggered my original question?

How does one study shape/tesuji?
I'm sure others can remember shapes and their application from books only, but I can't.

And - where would you recommend I start?
(With your diagrams, yes...)

Author:  EdLee [ Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:09 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hi Jika,

You mentioned the diagrams "don't make any sense" to you, currently.

1. White's local objective: to connect the 2 groups;
2. When you say the (other) diagrams don't make any sense to you, why not ?
Did you check each diagram ( with real stones and board ) and verify for yourself whether each :w1: move "connects" the 2 :white: groups ? :)

Author:  Jika [ Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Please help with this exercise II

Okay, done that (playing them out is really helpful).

It was easy to see the use of the first three diagrams.

For these ones, I was not able to find a solution where white does not escape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . 1 . . .
$$ | . . X . . X . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . X . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]


So, they must be good moves (I knew there was some reason why you posted them...).

My problem with playing these against myself is that I cannot be sure that I play the best moves for each side.
So I can't be sure that even if I'm not able to find a solution where black wins there really is none.

However, I enjoyed playing with them because it makes me think what (IMHO) the best moves for each side might be.
It demands switching perspectives (B/W) quickly.

Thanks a lot!!
Keep pushing me a bit :salute:

Author:  EdLee [ Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:57 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hi Jika,

Nice.
Quote:
For these ones, I was not able to find a solution where white does not escape:
Be mindful about the baby steps:
currently, we're at the point of " :white: connecting its 2 original groups," not about "escaping", yet.
Quote:
So, they must be good moves
No, not necessarily! The current question is post8: which candidates for :w4: did you consider for :white: to connect its original 2 groups.

Maybe now post5 makes a bit more sense to you ? :)

Author:  Jika [ Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please help with this exercise II

Indeed. :bow:

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