It is currently Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:47 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #21 Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:10 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8820
Liked others: 2602
Was liked: 3009
BTW:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ +------------
$$ | 2 3 1 O X .
$$ | . 4 . O X .
$$ | O O O O X .
$$ | X X X X X .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]


:w4: makes ko.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #22 Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:04 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 126
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 12
Thank you!

Obviously I did not think far enough to see that sacrificing those stones is worth it.

jlt wrote:
Jika wrote:
Seki??

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +------------
$$ | . 2 4 O X .
$$ | 1 3 . O X .
$$ | O O O O X .
$$ | X X X X X .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +------------
$$ | 6 2 4 O X .
$$ | 1 3 5 O X .
$$ | O O O O X .
$$ | X X X X X .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +------------
$$ | O O O O X .
$$ | . 7 . O X .
$$ | O O O O X .
$$ | X X X X X .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]


Dead.


Plus, I thought in this, black would be lost (square 4), if white takes A18.
Didn't think of black's throw in-atari.
Obviously, sacrificing stones for a bigger goal is not on my mind (yet, I hope).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ +------------
$$ | 2 . 1 O X .
$$ | . . . O X .
$$ | O O O O X .
$$ | X X X X X .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!


Last edited by Jika on Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #23 Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:17 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 126
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 12
@Bill:

Thank you for making full-SGF, I overlooked (and hopefully learned) much there!

Thanks also for explaining the ko terminology in such simple words.
I had heard of a move the opponent has to answer, but did not know this was a ko-threat (I thought a ko-threat was threatening to make a ko situation).

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #24 Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:11 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8820
Liked others: 2602
Was liked: 3009
Jika wrote:
@Bill:

Thank you for making full-SGF, I overlooked (and hopefully learned) much there!

Thanks also for explaining the ko terminology in such simple words.
I had heard of a move the opponent has to answer, but did not know this was a ko-threat (I thought a ko-threat was threatening to make a ko situation).


I misspoke slightly. A player can ignore a ko threat, and sometimes that's the right thing to do. ;)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #25 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:35 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 156
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 11
Rank: 2D
Tygem: shiva
So, what is exactly our community's distinction on reading v. visualization?

I definitely "see" the stones on the board when I am reading through variations.. but only up to a certain point. Once I'm reading deeper than 15 stones or so, and it becomes more global, I lose focus on "seeing" the stones, and the reading becomes more logical based on where I know stones should be, knowing where I should play globally based on what I expect the context of the board to be. For example, say I read a variation where I get a corner and my opponent gets the outside, then I won't focus on memorizing the exact stone placements, but understanding that in that variation the opponent has 'thickness' and visualize another pattern in a different area of the board. Is this sort of the distinction we have come up with?

On a side note, how deep can you guys read? I'm around 1D and I have been able to count a little over 20 moves deep in a large life and death fight expanding from a corner into the side/center. Makes me wonder what our resident 3/4/5D and higher can do.. and by extension a pro.

Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #26 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:43 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 532
Liked others: 46
Was liked: 184
Hades12 wrote:
I'm around 1D and I have been able to count a little over 20 moves deep in a large life and death fight.


I am 5k on some servers (KGS, Fox) and 8k EGF, and I've never been able to read more than 10 moves deep (except special situations like ladders). I regularly misread move 2. No wonder I am so far from dan level.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #27 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:48 am 
Judan

Posts: 6072
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 345
Was liked: 3266
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Hades12 wrote:
On a side note, how deep can you guys read? I'm around 1D and I have been able to count a little over 20 moves deep in a large life and death fight expanding from a corner into the side/center. Makes me wonder what our resident 3/4/5D and higher can do.. and by extension a pro.


Here's a 1 hour online tournament game I annotated with some of my in-game reading: http://eidogo.com/#300G4navp. I'd recommend Lee Sedol's commented games books to see what a top pro reads during a game. Accuracy in breadth is generally more important than high-depth (though for something like a fight ending with semeai you sometimes need the big depth too): no point reading 40 moves deep when you missed opponent's good move 4. Pros are not immune to such reading failures, I've seen plenty of commentaries with things like "I didn't expect that reply" ie didn't read enough choices for move 2.


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #28 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:26 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 156
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 11
Rank: 2D
Tygem: shiva
jlt wrote:
Hades12 wrote:
I'm around 1D and I have been able to count a little over 20 moves deep in a large life and death fight.


I am 5k on some servers (KGS, Fox) and 8k EGF, and I've never been able to read more than 10 moves deep (except special situations like ladders). I regularly misread move 2. No wonder I am so far from dan level.


I try not to get in a situation where I HAVE to read that deep. Most of the time if you get that far into reading, you are in some type of trouble. It's at the point where win or lose that fight, and you win or lose the game. If you watch dwyrin's YouTube basics, you will see that he focuses a lot on direction of play/sente and he can regular dispose of mid-level dans easily. I would say you can get to dan level only being able to read five-ten moves deep, as long as you are perfectly correct in your reading.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #29 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:43 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 156
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 11
Rank: 2D
Tygem: shiva
Uberdude wrote:
Hades12 wrote:
On a side note, how deep can you guys read? I'm around 1D and I have been able to count a little over 20 moves deep in a large life and death fight expanding from a corner into the side/center. Makes me wonder what our resident 3/4/5D and higher can do.. and by extension a pro.


Here's a 1 hour online tournament game I annotated with some of my in-game reading: http://eidogo.com/#300G4navp. I'd recommend Lee Sedol's commented games books to see what a top pro reads during a game. Accuracy in breadth is generally more important than high-depth (though for something like a fight ending with semeai you sometimes need the big depth too): no point reading 40 moves deep when you missed opponent's good move 4. Pros are not immune to such reading failures, I've seen plenty of commentaries with things like "I didn't expect that reply" ie didn't read enough choices for move 2.


Thank you for posting this game. I appreciated your comments and it was insightful. It encourages me to continue to work on reading seriously/playing slower games, rather than normal time settings and just playing based off of intuition/shape (which is my normal playing mentality).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #30 Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:48 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8629
Liked others: 1485
Was liked: 1462
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
IMO, reading depth and breadth are difficult to quantify objectively. The reason is because all moves are not equally likely to be correct. As a result, through training life and death problems, playing lots of games, and generally getting experience with a variety of shapes and situations, the initial selection of moves becomes better.

Someone who just learned the rules of go, having a strong capacity for holding variations in their mind, might very well be able to read a good number of moves wide and deep. But the moves they are choosing to read are unlikely to be very good, and it's unlikely that they'll end up with a good result, even if they read, say 15~20 sequences - they were just all the wrong sequences.

In contrast, a pro player has the intuition and instinct to play a most-likely-to-be-correct move almost instantly, without really "reading" deep or wide.

In some sense, a player's "reading" also includes the training they've already done, which allows them to choose better moves - and as a result, they don't have to really iterate as many sequences in their mind while they're actually playing a game in order to get to the right move.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness


This post by Kirby was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, Jika
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #31 Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:05 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1402
Liked others: 691
Was liked: 457
Rank: AGA 3k KGS 1k Fox 1d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Kirby wrote:
Someone who just learned the rules of go, having a strong capacity for holding variations in their mind, might very well be able to read a good number of moves wide and deep. But the moves they are choosing to read are unlikely to be very good, and it's unlikely that they'll end up with a good result, even if they read, say 15~20 sequences - they were just all the wrong sequences.

In contrast, a pro player has the intuition and instinct to play a most-likely-to-be-correct move almost instantly, without really "reading" deep or wide.

There was a study done at some point that came to the conclusion that chess players read the most (that is, have the greatest number of nodes in their search tree) at expert level (probably the equivalent of 1-2d in go). Weaker players didn't have the ability to read more than that, and masters didn't need to because they did so much pruning, and didn't painstakingly consider and discard moves and variations that they could tell were irrelevant.


This post by dfan was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, Kirby
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #32 Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:46 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 156
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 11
Rank: 2D
Tygem: shiva
dfan wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Someone who just learned the rules of go, having a strong capacity for holding variations in their mind, might very well be able to read a good number of moves wide and deep. But the moves they are choosing to read are unlikely to be very good, and it's unlikely that they'll end up with a good result, even if they read, say 15~20 sequences - they were just all the wrong sequences.

In contrast, a pro player has the intuition and instinct to play a most-likely-to-be-correct move almost instantly, without really "reading" deep or wide.

There was a study done at some point that came to the conclusion that chess players read the most (that is, have the greatest number of nodes in their search tree) at expert level (probably the equivalent of 1-2d in go). Weaker players didn't have the ability to read more than that, and masters didn't need to because they did so much pruning, and didn't painstakingly consider and discard moves and variations that they could tell were irrelevant.


This makes sense if you think of reading variations as a tree. A pro can just go from the trunk to the top, if we argue that the top of the tree is the right move. An amateur takes detours at lower branches and spends time reading through the twigs that a pro passes over getting to the higher branches, close to the correct move.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #33 Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:44 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 126
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 12
I've come to this conclusion myself - where I think my opponent's move might be is very often not what actually happens :lol:

I'm using the "analyse game" function on OGS with enthusiasm, but I think I don't see the best moves.

However it is interesting that, when playing against myself with the analyse function, I find it much easier to kill my own groups than my opponent's.
I think this shows that my opponent has the better/stronger position.

(Does one say "opponent"?)

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #34 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:16 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1402
Liked others: 691
Was liked: 457
Rank: AGA 3k KGS 1k Fox 1d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Jika wrote:
(Does one say "opponent"?)
Yes, your entire comment was perfect idiomatic English. :tmbup:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #35 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:46 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8629
Liked others: 1485
Was liked: 1462
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Hades12 wrote:
This makes sense if you think of reading variations as a tree. A pro can just go from the trunk to the top, if we argue that the top of the tree is the right move. An amateur takes detours at lower branches and spends time reading through the twigs that a pro passes over getting to the higher branches, close to the correct move.


Sure. And at the very start of the game as black, I'm "reading" 361 branches, right? ;-)

I feel like there should be different English words to distinguish between move selection guided by intuition or logic, and consciously considering alternatives that aren't brought about immediately by intuition. Maybe it's a part of visualization. Or maybe we could call it "iteration"? Or maybe "calculation"?

I'd like to allow the term "reading" to include shortcuts or heuristics obtained through intuition and/or other means, since that's often what happens at higher levels of play.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #36 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:57 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 156
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 11
Rank: 2D
Tygem: shiva
Kirby wrote:
Hades12 wrote:
This makes sense if you think of reading variations as a tree. A pro can just go from the trunk to the top, if we argue that the top of the tree is the right move. An amateur takes detours at lower branches and spends time reading through the twigs that a pro passes over getting to the higher branches, close to the correct move.


Sure. And at the very start of the game as black, I'm "reading" 361 branches, right? ;-)

I feel like there should be different English words to distinguish between move selection guided by intuition or logic, and consciously considering alternatives that aren't brought about immediately by intuition. Maybe it's a part of visualization. Or maybe we could call it "iteration"? Or maybe "calculation"?

I'd like to allow the term "reading" to include shortcuts or heuristics obtained through intuition and/or other means, since that's often what happens at higher levels of play.


361 factorial. Good luck!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #37 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:54 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8820
Liked others: 2602
Was liked: 3009
Kirby wrote:
Sure. And at the very start of the game as black, I'm "reading" 361 branches, right? ;-)


Well, only 55, right? :lol:

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #38 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:50 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 932
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 158
Bill Spight wrote:

Well, only 55, right? :lol:


Bill is talking about symmetry --- all rotations and reflections are equivalent. The only unique point for the first move is the center point. All others at least four equivalents and most have eight.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Difference between "reading" and "visualizing"?
Post #39 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:32 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8629
Liked others: 1485
Was liked: 1462
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Mike Novack wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:

Well, only 55, right? :lol:


Bill is talking about symmetry --- all rotations and reflections are equivalent. The only unique point for the first move is the center point. All others at least four equivalents and most have eight.


However simple it may be, reducing search space for symmetry is a form of heuristic, reducing search space like we've been discussing - isn't it?

Anyway, I'm just joking about the whole thing - the main thing I'd like to say is that it'd be good to distinguish between the conscious calculation that can happen during reading vs. intuition, shortcuts, heuristics, and logic/knowledge based shortcuts that happen during the process of "reading".

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group