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 Post subject: Second line "joseki" reflex
Post #1 Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 12:13 pm 
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I'm detecting a reflex. I tend to jump into the second line to defend from pressure on the joseki. And it does defend. However... well, second line. You guys know it better than I.

Thing is, I wouldn't do that on problems or off-game analisys, it's only during the game. Besides playing 500 more games, do you guys know a way to cure myself of this?

Thanks. Take care; stay healthy.

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 Post subject: Re: Second line "joseki" reflex
Post #2 Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 12:59 pm 
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I don't understand. Jump from where into the second line? Which joseki? What pressure?

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 Post subject: Re: Second line "joseki" reflex
Post #3 Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 1:09 pm 
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Ferran wrote:
I'm detecting a reflex. I tend to jump into the second line to defend from pressure on the joseki. And it does defend. However... well, second line. You guys know it better than I.

Thing is, I wouldn't do that on problems or off-game analisys, it's only during the game. Besides playing 500 more games, do you guys know a way to cure myself of this?

Thanks. Take care; stay healthy.


To paraphrase the great bridge writer, Victor Mollo, stand in front of a mirror every day and repeat to yourself 100 times, "I will not jump to the second line. I will not jump to the second line." ;) Just kidding, OC.

What joseki are you talking about, and why is the play on the second line a problem? If it is.

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Post #4 Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 5:31 pm 
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Hi Ferran,
Quote:
I'm detecting a reflex. I tend to jump into the second line...
If a second-line(*) move wins you the game, Play it!

If a second-line(*) move loses you the game, Don't!

Your reflex happens because your brain has been poisoned by bad advice and proverbs.

Get rid of your mental blocks and just play the specific board, on every move.



____
(*) Substitute second-line with any.

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 Post subject: Re: Second line "joseki" reflex
Post #5 Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 5:04 am 
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Sorry it took me so long. Weird week, weirder Saturday. All good, but a tad weird.

This is the beginning of one of my recent games; I'm white.



Now, to be clear, I put "joseki" in quotes because it wasn't. I barely know any joseki, and they're not my priority. I don't think I understand them enough to use them. I *am* trying to understand openings... but joseki as set patterns? Later.

But that crawling on the second line starting on move 19 is not good. And then, when the chance come to actually use the second line on S4... I don't. From this game and others I get three... recurring errors:

* I crawl too much into the second line

* I don't cut (I was going to say "well", but I can probably even dispense with the qualifier)

* I tenuki too early.

There are other mistakes, to be sure, but these are the ones I'm looking into now. So, any *specific* ideas to this problem you know? I mean, yes, play more games, do more L&D... Sure. Those are *generic* ideas, they work for these mistakes and for any other. Anything else?

Take care; thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Second line "joseki" reflex
Post #6 Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 5:43 am 
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From what I see:

  • Try to get out to the center. After move 22 you shouldn't tenuki, Black has many cutting points, you can use them to avoid being locked in. The epidemic is almost over, you don't have to live small in a closed place like that.
  • You created many bad shapes on the top: ripped keima, hane on the head of two stones.

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 Post subject: Re: Second line "joseki" reflex
Post #7 Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 9:05 am 
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jlt wrote:
From what I see:
  • Try to get out to the center. After move 22 you shouldn't tenuki, Black has many cutting points, you can use them to avoid being locked in. The epidemic is almost over, you don't have to live small in a closed place like that.


Thanks. That's what I want to concentrate on, for now, yes. Now... how do I stop it from being my default. Because it's kinda obvious after the fact, bu not while I'm doing it. Not the first tome, not the Nth.

If the only solution is "play more, do tsumego", then that's that. But I'd rather do something more specific.

And, yes, the top dies in the most stupid way possible. I can't win at Go, but I can win at stupid. But what do you mean by *ripped* keima? 6-pack abs keima? Heavy?

Take care.

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 Post subject: Re: Second line "joseki" reflex
Post #8 Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 9:27 am 
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By ripped keima I mean this shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . .
$$ . . X O .
$$ . O X . .
$$ . . . . .[/go]


This appears at moves 55-56-57 of your game.

Concerning your "2nd line reflex", I would say
  • Try to put more value on influence (=stones facing the center) instead of making small territory.
  • Go is the "surrounding game". Try to surround and to avoid being surrounded. Even if you don't kill, by surrounding your opponent's group you will naturally get influence, which will be useful later to invade or reduce your opponent's territory.

But that's just a guess, based on one-half game...

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 Post subject: Re: Second line "joseki" reflex
Post #9 Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 10:05 am 
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jlt wrote:
By ripped keima I mean this shape:

This appears at moves 55-56-57 of your game.


Gotcha. Thanks.

Quote:
Concerning your "2nd line reflex", I would say
  • Try to put more value on influence (=stones facing the center) instead of making small territory.
  • Go is the "surrounding game". Try to surround and to avoid being surrounded. Even if you don't kill, by surrounding your opponent's group you will naturally get influence, which will be useful later to invade or reduce your opponent's territory.

But that's just a guess, based on one-half game...


Hm... Yes. I'm not really focused on killing opponent's groups, but I am of having live ones.

Could it be I'm doing too many L&D exercises and too few of other kinds?

Take care. Sorry to bother, and thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Second line "joseki" reflex
Post #10 Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 10:18 am 
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A few comments. :)


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— Winona Adkins

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Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Second line "joseki" reflex
Post #11 Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 10:24 am 
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You could try tesuji problems, in particular those about cutting the opponent's group or connecting yours. If you can disconnect your opponent's group into two weak groups, then you can attack and control the center. Conversely, if your groups are connected then they are strong and difficult to attack.

For instance, look at the position at move 49.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Position at move 49
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , O . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . f O . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X a . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . b c . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X X . , X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . . X O O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If Black gets a chance to play at a, then your D16 group will be almost surrounded. So you have to play there. Then you are threatening a push and cut at f, so Black needs to respond at b. You may continue at c to strengthen your group, and if Black responds with d, then you can continue with e and now you are starting to surround your opponent.

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