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 Post subject: Re: Opening principles for beginners
Post #21 Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:08 am 
Oza

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Learning from mistakes, when promptly pointed out, is one thing. Unlearning bad habits is another story. OC, with the death of neurons and the alteration of synapses, true unlearning is possible, in the sense of erasure. However, what happens as a rule is that the original neural connections remain in place, but are inhibited and replaced by new connections which produce new habits. Under stress, such as may happen during the play of a game, that inhibition may fail and the old bad habit resurface. Akin to what Freud called the return of the repressed.


No quibbles with this, except that it's not addressing my main point, which was about learning. This is about unlearning.

I am suggesting there is an important difference between learning from a list, or from what somebody else has told you, which may mean you "know" it, but in a specific and superficial way, and learning by experience, which leads to deeper knowledge (intuition, if you like) which has wider, general application.

If someone teaches you to parrot 2+2=4 at school, you may "know" it and even pass an exam by repeating that. But it doesn't help with 3+3. If, however, your teacher gives you 2 sweets and then 2 more sweets, and asks how many you have got, you may make a mistake initially and say 22 or whatever, but you can be guided to learn from your mistake, as opposed to unlearning it. And once you've grasped that, the sheer delight you feel from doing it yourself, makes it a deep part of your learning - an 3+3 is then a doddle.

I'm certain mistakes are very useful in aiding the learning experience. What I'm unsure about is how much mistakery can be tolerated before it degenerates into bad habits and refusal to listen to alternative opinions. My own experience is: quite a lot at the beginning, and the joy of discovering a mistake is a major element in boosting passion for the subject and wanting to learn more. Things I learn too easily I tire of easily. And vice versa, which is why I've been doing go for over 50 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Opening principles for beginners
Post #22 Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:46 am 
Tengen

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Learning correct knowledge versus learning and later unlearning (partly) wrong knowledge:

As a kyu, I was taught some correct and some (partly) wrong knowledge. The correct knowledge made me stronger very quickly. The (partly) wrong knowledge made me stronger only a bit and later turned out to be a major obstacle delaying my later strength increment. The net impact of (partly) wrong, later unlearned knowledge might even have been negative.

Correct knowledge has not been available for everything but Bill, I and others enhance it. Therefore, learning from knowledge is becoming easier.

Needless to say, there are also further ways of learning, such as learning from one's mistakes, training a neural net (AI or human brain of a player skilled at subconscious learning), or acquiring skills of reading, judgement or self-controlling one's psychology.

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 Post subject: Re: Opening principles for beginners
Post #23 Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:09 am 
Dies in gote

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As I started the thread, and even I´m a weak Go but reasonable strong Chessplayer, I have the impertinence to add my point of view to the words of you experts, because I cannot imagine that this should be so far apart between go and chess.

1. in chess, the doctrine has changed again and again over the last 120 years because the game has constantly evolved and developed. In my youth I had training with the coach of a German national team at that time, and almost everything I learned, did not pass the test of time. Why? Because people have understood - also through the advent of computers - that dogmatism is less useful than concrete solutions in a unique position. If the Soviet school of the former socalled "Patriarch" Michael Botwinnik was primarily marked by dogmatism, it developed towards more and more dynamism and concreteness. Today, even the former world champion Viswasnathan Anand says: "As long as it works, I don't have to understand it completely".

2) Already in my youth my coach told me: The students learn the doctrine and the rules, and the masters look for the exceptions to the rules.

3 What Robert Jasiek writes has also found its way into the chess world: You can learn good habits as well as bad ones. Otherwise it is hard to explain that there are chess and go players who, even after 30 or 40 years of playing practice, barely outgrow the level of the advanced or even weaker. In Chess Elo > 1400 and in Go maybe DDK?!

Thanks again for the many extremely competent answers! I have never experienced anything like this in any other forum. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Opening principles for beginners
Post #24 Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:39 am 
Tengen

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The most fascinating aspect of AI go is that its play mostly conforms to centuries of human go insight. Yes, there have been minor changes (deeper reading, better judgement than most humans, some new josekis / openings). Overall, however, the game is still the same. That is because 1) the game is balanced between tactics, strategy and evaluation and 2) human go theory has been developed broadly for a long time for most aspects.


This post by RobertJasiek was liked by 2 people: jumapari, lightvector
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 Post subject: Re: Opening principles for beginners
Post #25 Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:21 am 
Honinbo

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John Fairbairn wrote:
No quibbles with this, except that it's not addressing my main point, which was about learning. This is about unlearning.


Well, my point was about unnecessary unlearning. I doubt if there is much difference between us.

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I'm certain mistakes are very useful in aiding the learning experience. What I'm unsure about is how much mistakery can be tolerated before it degenerates into bad habits and refusal to listen to alternative opinions. My own experience is: quite a lot at the beginning, and the joy of discovering a mistake is a major element in boosting passion for the subject and wanting to learn more. Things I learn too easily I tire of easily. And vice versa, which is why I've been doing go for over 50 years.


I was fortunate, when learning go, that, with the exception of one or two games, all of my games were with players 5 kyu or better. That limited my ability to form bad habits, because they punished most of my mistakes. ;) There are also degrees of mistakes. Replacing a bad mistake with a not so bad mistake is progress. And there are cases, as we all know, where to get better you have to get worse first. A friend of mine was stuck at 1 kyu for a long time and was frustrated. Since he never played reductions and always play invasions, I suggested that he take a month and reverse that. Always play reductions and never play invasions. He needed to learn to play reductions, and doing so would mean that he would make new mistakes. :)

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