It is currently Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:46 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Trying the fifth
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:21 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 430
Liked others: 82
Was liked: 78
Rank: OGS ddk
KGS: Ferran
IGS: Ferran
OGS: Ferran
I'm probably going to try, for a while, opening on the fifth. 5-3, 5-4 and 5-5. I don't particularly "like" 5-5, but, as dwyrin just said, I dislike 3-3 invasions, and playing 3-4, which I DO like, has exposed a defect of mine: I tend to crawl to the third. Which would be okay if it was a choice, but it's a gote reflex. (Good news is that I used to do that on the 2nd).

Let's see if being forced to the outside helps. Any suggestions?

Incidentally, I've been surprised at how many 5-3 and 5-4 I'm finding in the Genjo-Chitolu series. I'd have expected it much later.

Take care. Happy New year

_________________
玄 之 玄

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trying the fifth
Post #2 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:34 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1136
Liked others: 91
Was liked: 389
If you don't like your opponent doing X to you, then try doing X to your opponents to see how they react.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trying the fifth
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:07 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 430
Liked others: 82
Was liked: 78
Rank: OGS ddk
KGS: Ferran
IGS: Ferran
OGS: Ferran
jlt wrote:
If you don't like your opponent doing X to you, then try doing X to your opponents to see how they react.


To me, this sounds like "if you don't like being slapped, slap other people and see how they react" or, less confrontstional, maybe, "if you don't like ham, serve it to your kids and see how they react".

Also, what I don't like is the game it creates, not whatever it does to me. So, why would I do something I don't like? It would be like serving that ham above to myself, too. I lose interest in high-(ish? Mid Dan ama and pros) level games when they have early invasions; why on earth would I do that to my own game?

Take care

_________________
玄 之 玄

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trying the fifth
Post #4 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:11 am 
Oza

Posts: 2325
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 656
Was liked: 421
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
It's more you see ways to deal with it when you are the one trying to get it to work. :)

Why do you dislike 3,3 invasions so much?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trying the fifth
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:46 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1136
Liked others: 91
Was liked: 389
Let me elaborate a bit. You don't like being pressed down on the second or third line. But why do you crawl like that? Maybe because you like territory too much and don't see the value of influence. So you have to change your state of mind. Take the center and realize that each time your opponent adds a move on the third line, you are just giving him 2 points, but that what you are gaining in the center may be more valuable.

But then, maybe you are not used to playing for influence, so your opponent will find ways to counter your influence. So next time your opponent is starting to get too much influence, you will have ideas how to reduce it.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trying the fifth
Post #6 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:08 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 430
Liked others: 82
Was liked: 78
Rank: OGS ddk
KGS: Ferran
IGS: Ferran
OGS: Ferran
Boidhre wrote:
Why do you dislike 3,3 invasions so much?


1. Even the best fare gets repetitive after breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner and supper.

2. It seems to be part and parcel with games that are very local, a spilling dump of black tar and white lumps of grease .

3. Related, the joseki that usually follow have no breathing space. It's like fencing with a straightjacket.

Does that make sense? Take care

_________________
玄 之 玄

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trying the fifth
Post #7 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:13 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 430
Liked others: 82
Was liked: 78
Rank: OGS ddk
KGS: Ferran
IGS: Ferran
OGS: Ferran
jlt wrote:
But why do you crawl like that?


Fear. Fear is my mind's killer. I actually like influence.

Quote:
But then, maybe you are not used to playing for influence, so your opponent will find ways to counter your influence. So next time your opponent is starting to get too much influence, you will have ideas how to reduce it.


Which might lead me to choose 5-4. It looks like I might get both choices there: influence, getting invaded and fighting HIS influence.

Three? You see why I suck at Go? I can't count past two. ;)

Take care

_________________
玄 之 玄

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trying the fifth
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:17 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2325
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 656
Was liked: 421
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Variety is very much the spice of life when it comes to go. It's extremely valid to get sick of a particular fuseki pattern repeating over and over. I would say have fun, play a wide range of opening moves from 3-3 to 6-4 and in review try to find the mistakes you make over and over and try to think about how to help that.

But keeping the game feeling interesting and fresh is very important. Later when returning to the 4,4 you might find it and the 3,3 invasion more interesting but you don't need to force that now.


This post by Boidhre was liked by: Ferran
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trying the fifth
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:06 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 786
Liked others: 287
Was liked: 130
Rank: German 2 dan
I guess that you should try everything out. You might find the right kind of opening for your playing style. However, I think that it is unlikely that you can compensate for bad later plays by choosing a different opening. For that, I'd recommend reviewing and then learning better plays from that.

_________________
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trying the fifth
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:31 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 430
Liked others: 82
Was liked: 78
Rank: OGS ddk
KGS: Ferran
IGS: Ferran
OGS: Ferran
My goal is not so much to compensate or use the opening as an advantage of sorts. Nor do I expect to stay on fifth for "long". My goal is to use the opening to force me to play outside. It's going to take some effort to crawl into second from fifth. With some luck, I'll grow some "influence eyes" and less instinct for the 2nd.

In the meanwhile, I'm going to get clobbered. The way I see it, I'm forcing limitations to find a different way. This does not substitute reviewing, of course: I suspect it rather mandates it.

Take care

_________________
玄 之 玄

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trying the fifth
Post #11 Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:48 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 314
Liked others: 67
Was liked: 106
KGS: lepore
I like to play 5-4, 5-5, 6-4 stuff in the opening. It is a good way of telling yourself that the game is not won in the first four moves.

Is it suboptimal? I'm sure it is. But if suboptimal means two or three points worse than perfect play, I don't really care about that.

Also, when your opponent sees you playing high moves, sometimes they will try very hard to keep you from getting outside influence, and as a result you are made an offer you cannot refuse, and end up with great territory early in the game.


This post by mhlepore was liked by: Ferran
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trying the fifth
Post #12 Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:31 am 
Judan

Posts: 6656
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 429
Was liked: 3651
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
I've had people insta-resign if I play opening moves more than 4 lines from the edge.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trying the fifth
Post #13 Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:12 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1781
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 271
Was liked: 825
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
If I understand correctly, the OP doesn't dislike 3-3 so much because it gives a bad result but because the kind of game that results of it, is boring or otherwise unappealing, and so returning the favor is not really solving the issue.

I sympathize with that and anyway alternative openings on 3-3, 3-4, 3-5, 4-5 are not substantially worse than 4-4, even more adventurous openings aren't.

Myself I like the simplicity of 4-4 and when 3-3'd I find there's enough variety. Depending on whether I need the territory or the influence I play these two patterns

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B territory - gote
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 2 . . . .
$$ . 0 3 O . . . .
$$ . 5 4 8 . . . .
$$ . 6 7 . . . . .
$$ . 9 . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B influence - sente
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 2 . . . .
$$ . . 3 O . . . .
$$ . . 5 4 . . . .
$$ . 7 6 . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]


This post by Knotwilg was liked by: sefo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trying the fifth
Post #14 Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:10 am 
Beginner

Posts: 12
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Knotwilg wrote:
If I understand correctly, the OP doesn't dislike 3-3 so much because it gives a bad result but because the kind of game that results of it, is boring or otherwise unappealing, and so returning the favor is not really solving the issue.

I sympathize with that and anyway alternative openings on 3-3, 3-4, 3-5, 4-5 are not substantially worse than 4-4, even more adventurous openings aren't.

Myself I like the simplicity of 4-4 and when 3-3'd I find there's enough variety. Depending on whether I need the territory or the influence I play these two patterns

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B territory - gote
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 2 . . . .
$$ . 0 3 O . . . .
$$ . 5 4 8 . . . .
$$ . 6 7 . . . . .
$$ . 9 . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B influence - sente
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 2 . . . .
$$ . . 3 O . . . .
$$ . . 5 4 . . . .
$$ . 7 6 . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]


Interesting approach. Have you tried playing with a different scheme? I think the variety would be more interesting. But if you are a beginner, then of course it is better to work out one scheme first. I'm also a beginner, trying different game schemes, but so far the result is small.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group