It is currently Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:01 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: IGS scoring
Post #1 Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 10:16 am 
Beginner

Posts: 5
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: 20 kyu
I am VERY new, but I don't understand IGS scoring. When I manually count, it's no where NEAR the score that is given. I'm still learning, but I just played a game where I was fine with how we marked the stones, but the final score was over twice the manual count I did.

To be clear, I'm new and I'm fine losing all the time; I just take exception to how IGS scores things. If anyone has insight, please elucidate me.

Thanks ahead of time,

Flint.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #2 Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:35 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1520
Liked others: 830
Was liked: 505
Rank: AGA 3k KGS 1k Fox 2d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Can you provide an example?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #3 Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:40 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1000
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 169
Yes, please provide an example. If you are VERY new the most likely explanation is confusion about which groups are alive or dead.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:14 am 
Beginner

Posts: 5
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: 20 kyu
Attachment:
MMXFMSAPTC.sgf [6.02 KiB]
Downloaded 90 times

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:10 am 
Beginner

Posts: 5
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: 20 kyu
I tried to post the game, not sure I did it correctly, but it also said it was awaiting approval from a moderator. I might try again...the way I did it was I downloaded the "sgf" and then attached it to the post and put it 'inline' to the post.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #6 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:41 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 5440
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1040
Was liked: 1429
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
This is what the sgf file looks like with the proper tags. Does anyone know what is wrong with it?



Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #7 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:59 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 150
Location: Russia, Krasnoyarsk, (GMT+07:00)
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 16
KGS: 2k
IGS: 4k
DGS: 3d
OGS: 3d
Universal go server handle: tegais
Hi, IGS says White wins by 121.5 points. How much was your counting?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:19 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 5
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: 20 kyu
White won by 83.5. That's my count.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:58 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 150
Location: Russia, Krasnoyarsk, (GMT+07:00)
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 16
KGS: 2k
IGS: 4k
DGS: 3d
OGS: 3d
Universal go server handle: tegais
Have you counted prisoners? White has 48 and Black has 7. The difference is 41. The sum 41+83.5 = 124.5 is pretty close.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #10 Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:28 am 
Judan

Posts: 5503
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 744
After deleting white spaces and all miscellaneous tags, and inserting the SGF file contents explicitly, the SGF appears. So the problem is one of: the white spaces or some missing escape character in the original SGF, or the missing inserting of the SGF file contents explicitly.



This post by RobertJasiek was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #11 Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:07 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1315
Liked others: 114
Was liked: 412
For Black, add 1 point for each empty intersection inside Black's territory + 7 captures.

For White, add 1 point for each empty intersection inside White's territory + 2 points for each black stone inside White's territory + 48 captures and subtract 5.5 komi (the game is with reverse komi).

Attachment:
Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG [ 92.18 KiB | Viewed 2505 times ]


This post by jlt was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #12 Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:50 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3365
121½ points for White looks right to me. :)


BTW, most go servers do not require it, but it is good practice to fill all the dame, to make sure that nothing is overlooked. Often when the dame get filled or nearly so, big swings can happen and the tables can be turned. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #13 Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:34 am 
Beginner

Posts: 5
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: 20 kyu
Okay, I'm still confused, but have been reading a lot...scoring is a lot harder than I first perceived. And so far, I've not read any chapter in a book on scoring that thoroughly educates me (obviously). I will continue to work on it and read this forum which is new to me. I'm 46 years old and a very impatient person, which is one of the reasons that Go appeals to me, because I really want to calm my mind and become a better person.

Thank you all so much for the responses.


This post by Flint Prophet was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #14 Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:44 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3365
Don't worry. You'll get better quickly. :) After I had been playing for a year in my early twenties, I liked to play over professional games, which were published without all the dame being filled. To my dismay I found that my count sometimes differed from the published result. :( That is not unusual, BTW. ;)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #15 Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:57 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 409
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 79
Rank: kgs 5 kyu
KGS: Pio2001
Flint Prophet wrote:
Okay, I'm still confused, but have been reading a lot...scoring is a lot harder than I first perceived. And so far, I've not read any chapter in a book on scoring that thoroughly educates me (obviously).


Hi Flint Prophet,
I understand perfectly how you feel. The rules of go have long been a weak point of this game. So far, the answer to these problems has always been to join a club and have more advanced players explain the matter.

I see, through your games, that you are a beginner. But you have already understood that some stones can no longer avoid being captured, once they are completely surrounded inside an enemy territory.

In order to get a clear version of the scoring rules, use the Chinese (or AGA) rules instead of the Japanese rule.
Here is the text of the French Federation of Go, that use the same kind of rule (translation is mine) :

Quote:
Territory

A territory is a set of one or several adjacent empty intersections that are sourrounded by stones that are all of the same colour.

End of the game

The game ends when the two players pass consecutively. Points are then counted. Each intersection in the territory of a player brings in one point, as well as each of his stones that is still present on the board.

Besides, starting is an advantage for Black. Therefore, in an even game, White gets compensation points called komi. The komi is usually 7.5 points. The purpose of the half point is to avoid draws.

The winner is the player with most points.

Handicap game

Sometimes, a handicap is given to one of the players, by letting the opponent, who plays Black, playing several moves in a row at the beginning of the game. In this case, White gets half a point (still to avoid draws), and a number of extra points equal to the number of moves that he couldn't play at the beginning of the game.


Notes :
-As long as you can add stones between the territories (example, intersections P4 P5 and P6 in your game), you score additional points (one per stone). These points are called "dame". In practice, that's the main difference with the Japanese rule of go. Under Japanese rules, you can stop playing without filling them. Under Chinese / AGA / British / New Zealand / French rules, you loose points if you let your opponent taking them all while you are yourself passing.

-If you strictly follow the rules, you can see that your territory doesn't belong to you until you have completely captured all the enemy stones that are inside. Otherwise, according to the definition, since the empty intersections are not surrounded by stones of the same colour, these empty intersections are not a territory.
After a few games following the above rules, you will quickly realize that you can predict the score without capturing everything, mentally removing stones that are going to die. That's why all players stop playing before this moment, and, in order to save time, remove dead stones without playing, and count immediately the results.
In the picture posted above, you can see that the software has greyed out these stones.
This shortcut is explicitly allowed in Chinese and AGA rules. It is mandatory in Japanese rules.

-The French rules stated above allow Black to play his handicap stones wherever he wants. This is a French oddity. In Japanese, Chinese and AGA rules, handicap stones must be played on star points in a given order.

-In Chinese rules handicap games, White gets one more compensation point than in French or AGA rules.

-After some time, you will notice that both players stop playing at the same time. The equivalence between counting stones + territory (chinese style), or territory + prisoners (japanese style) will then become clear : since, dead stones and prisoners included, there are (nearly) the same total number of black and white stones, and since replacing a territory point with a stone doesn't change the Chinese score, you can see who's the winner by filling territory with prisoners and just counting the remaining territory.
And that's how the Japanese style of counting (territory minus prisoners) was born.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #16 Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:04 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3365
Off topic, to Pio2001

Pio2001 wrote:
And that's how the Japanese style of counting (territory minus prisoners) was born.


That's a myth. The earliest scored game records we have used territory scoring. In China. The oldest description of go that we have seems to indicate that stones were counted, but we have no such game records until much later. It is quite possible that both territory and stone scoring derived from an earlier form of the game. We just don't know.

I have nothing against teaching beginners AGA, French, or Chinese rules, but Flint Prophet is playing on IGS, and should use their rules. No sense having beginners get into rules quibbles, IMO. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: gennan
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #17 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:19 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 409
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 79
Rank: kgs 5 kyu
KGS: Pio2001
Bill Spight wrote:
I have nothing against teaching beginners AGA, French, or Chinese rules, but Flint Prophet is playing on IGS, and should use their rules.


Thank for the reminder about the history of go, Bill.

My advice to Flint Prophet is motivated by this post :

Flint Prophet wrote:
Okay, I'm still confused, but have been reading a lot...scoring is a lot harder than I first perceived. And so far, I've not read any chapter in a book on scoring that thoroughly educates me (obviously).


Since he has already read a lot of chapters about scoring, and 80% of them deal with Japanese style scoring, and the problem is that all these failed to "thoroughly" educate him, I tried something else, that gives a straightforward and clear definition of who's the winner.

Bill Spight wrote:
No sense having beginners get into rules quibbles, IMO. :)


That's right, but in this case, we need a unique rule worldwide that can be understood by beginners.
No rule that bases the definition of the score on "life" or "death" can be applied by a beginner player, because a beginner can't tell if a stone is dead or alive.
In some simple cases, like an endgame open ko, even an experienced player can't.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #18 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:25 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3365
Pio2001 wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
No sense having beginners get into rules quibbles, IMO. :)


That's right, but in this case, we need a unique rule worldwide that can be understood by beginners.
No rule that bases the definition of the score on "life" or "death" can be applied by a beginner player, because a beginner can't tell if a stone is dead or alive.
In some simple cases, like an endgame open ko, even an experienced player can't.


Well, then, tell him to switch to a go server that uses those rules. Otherwise there is trouble ahead.

I learned the Japanese rules, but I was able to rely upon my opponents to tell me which stones were alive or dead. I expect that is the case on IGS.

The problem comes when beginner plays beginner, which was typically the case in the West before the age of the internet. Now it is possible for rank beginners on the internet to consult with experienced players or, possibly, to rely upon the server to do the scoring. In the case in question, IGS was right about the score. The large difference between its score and his counting was not a result of the rules.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: gennan
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #19 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:29 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6698
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 434
Was liked: 3675
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Count a small board first to practice.

https://senseis.xmp.net/?JapaneseCountingExample


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: IGS scoring
Post #20 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:28 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3365
Uberdude wrote:
Count a small board first to practice.

https://senseis.xmp.net/?JapaneseCountingExample


The problem with a couple of those examples is leaving the dame unfilled. Filling the dame before scoring is the normal practice.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group