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Looking for a training partner
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Author:  Mnemonic [ Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Looking for a training partner
hi,

I have a tournament coming up in about a month and want to study some fuseki/joseki. The problem is that it is sorta hard at my level. Just playing online looks like a huge waste of time if I'm trying to learn the counter to a specific fuseki. (Unless it's ni-ren-sai, wich seemingly everybody plays at my level :sad: ) And just reading joseki/fuseki books won't do the trick either since I might have memorized the sequence, but my opponent didn't. He will deviate from the sequence and I'll have to fall back on my reading (yikes :sad: ) What I am hoping to do is find common noseki sequences and ways to punish them (I guess the ddk equivalent of hamete :) ) Additionally I might learn the actual meanings of the joseki moves by deviating from the sequence myself.

What I'm looking for: an (or several) opponents of roughly my strength. We will discuss playing time and fuseki/joseki of choice upfront (probably by PM) We will then proceed to play a semi-serious game (maybe 15 min + 5x30sec byo-yomi) and then review together afterwards.

For example I really want to get to know the 3-5 point so I propose something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Anybody interested? Does this even make sense?
Author:  cdybeijing [ Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a training partner
I am sorry to undermine you, but at 11 kyu this is not the optimal way to prepare for a tournament or to improve your game.

I do not believe playing is a waste of your time - play as much as you can and get every game reviewed in the KGS Teaching Ladder if time allows.

Spend twice as much time solving some beginner level tsumego and tesuji problems as you do on learning simple josekis (they should be pretty easy and fast; don't stress yourself with too many difficult problems.)
Author:  jts [ Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a training partner
Quote:
Just playing online looks like a huge waste of time if I'm trying to learn the counter to a specific fuseki.


The best counter to a fuseki is good reading. [/day9]

If you're really worried about your opening, I found "In the beginning" useful. But if you play two or three games a day for a month, you're going to see a lot of different josekis and fusekis, and a lot of different attempts to mess with your own josekis and fusekis, and you'll improve a lot that way.
Author:  topazg [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a training partner
I'm unsure what your goal is - is it to get a good understanding of what to aim for in a fuseki, or to learn the right (and how to punish the wrong) way to choose and play josekis that you are going to typically encounter at 11k?
Author:  gaius [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a training partner
Mnemonic wrote:
(...) I might have memorized the sequence, but my opponent didn't. He will deviate from the sequence and I'll have to fall back on my reading (yikes :sad: ) (...)

... and there you go, this is exactly the reason that memorising sequences which are beyond your understanding is completely useless!

Mnemonic wrote:
(...) What I am hoping to do is find common noseki sequences and ways to punish them (I guess the ddk equivalent of hamete :) )

... and then you will end up with a position that, according to some professional's judgment at some time, based on thorough evaluation of all the aji in that position, is somewhat favourable for you. What's the point, if you don't first have a good understanding of how to use that position, or break your opponent's position effectively?

At your level, studying joseki is probably not really worth the effort at all... Instead, study tesuji and tsumego. Oh, and...
Mnemonic wrote:
We will then proceed to play a semi-serious game (maybe 15 min + 5x30sec byo-yomi) and then review together afterwards.

... that sounds better: serious games with reviews are always good!
Author:  Mnemonic [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a training partner
topazg wrote:
I'm unsure what your goal is - is it to get a good understanding of what to aim for in a fuseki, or to learn the right (and how to punish the wrong) way to choose and play josekis that you are going to typically encounter at 11k?


I guess both, although I understand that the first goal is quite a long way off. The thing is at my level most people deviate widely from joseki and I want to understand what I have to do against that. There are also several josekis that I know that I want to deviate from just to understand why something is wrong. 2 examples:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W How do you answer this?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 5 . . . .
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Or why not play here?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . C 6 . .
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Quote:
What's the point, if you don't first have a good understanding of how to use that position, or break your opponent's position effectively?

That’s kind of my point. Since I'm not good enough to study joseki from a book (which I am not doing), how about studying them by playing them a lot and trying different variations, including non joseki ones?
Author:  topazg [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a training partner
Mnemonic wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W How do you answer this?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 5 . . . .
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Well, hane at the head is good for Black shapewise generally. Hane at the head and foot is intolerably good, so White's first instinct should be instant:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W How do you answer this?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 a . . . .
$$ | . . . X 5 b . . .
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


The cut is now fixed due to a net, but what about the "a" and "b" aji - it's undeniable they aren't nice. So, if you were going to fix those instead, how does this feel?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W How do you answer this?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X O . 1 . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 3 5 . . .
$$ | . . . 6 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


This is so incredibly painful for White that the first option is basically forced. This analysis is purely on the analysis of strong and weak shape, and the "repeatedly stabbed in the face" pain that being on the receiving end of hane around head+foot of two stones bores into you. So, how do you get the confidence in that judgement? Experience, playing games, being punished, getting a stronger grip on the fundamentals of shape, and reading, will eventually give you the answer. Trying to learn, particularly by throwing stones around with another 11k, may not help you much.

CAVEAT: However, if you find that kind of study fun, just do it anyway. Go is to be enjoyed unless you want to be a professional

EDIT: Hidden nonsense for interest:

There's also the following of semi interest:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W How do you answer this?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 1 . . . .
$$ | . 9 7 X O . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . 8 5 2 3 . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


There's some odd messy aji there. As a result, :b6: in your diagram is rarely played - Instead, Black often plays :b7: in this diagram to kill that aji and still leave the interesting "a" and "b" points. Black has other alternatives too.


-------------------------

Mnemonic wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Or why not play here?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . C 6 . .
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


The difference here is my subtle. My advice to you is, play your move exclusively from now on. It's unlikely an 11k will punish you for it, and if you don't understand what's wrong with it, don't avoid it. Eventually, someone will start showing you the holes in the thin-ness of it, and only then will you start wanting to avoid it - fortunately, you'll also understand why you want to avoid it, which is priceless.

You also have the option of lessons if you want a quicker route to understanding some of these issues ;)
Author:  Chew Terr [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a training partner
A lot of people are harping on the fact that you don't really need to 'practice against the Chinese fuseki' and such. However, the idea of a practice partner in general is a sound one. Playing a lot of games with someone around your strength is a great idea, and can only help both players. While it might be less helpful against a specific fuseki, this sort of practice is good in general, and more fun than playing games with strangers.
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a training partner
topazg wrote:
Mnemonic wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Or why not play here?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . C 6 . .
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


The difference here is my subtle. My advice to you is, play your move exclusively from now on. It's unlikely an 11k will punish you for it, and if you don't understand what's wrong with it, don't avoid it. Eventually, someone will start showing you the holes in the thin-ness of it, and only then will you start wanting to avoid it - fortunately, you'll also understand why you want to avoid it, which is priceless.

You also have the option of lessons if you want a quicker route to understanding some of these issues ;)
I'm 4k on KGS and I'm not sure I actually know why that shape is bad. It feels thin, but do I know how to approach it? Not sure. Maybe I should experiment with more bad moves.
Author:  Chew Terr [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a training partner
hyperpape wrote:
I'm 4k on KGS and I'm not sure I actually know why that shape is bad. It feels thin, but do I know how to approach it? Not sure. Maybe I should experiment with more bad moves.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Or why not play here?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 0 . . . .
$$ | . . a X 7 C 6 . .
$$ | . . 4 9 8 . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I think white might be able to attach at 7 to try to either cut 6 off from the side or take the corner with 'a'. Someone stronger (or with more time to read) would have to correct me if I"m wrong, though. However, it looks to me like, if 6 is closer, black can safely defend at 'a' if W attaches.

Edit: note that this depends on a ladder. If 10 defends at 'a', W needs to be able to capture 8 in a ladder for this to work.
Author:  Mnemonic [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a training partner
The cut at :w9: looks interesting, I hadn't considered that. What I found though is that :w1: below becomes sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W And now?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . .
$$ | . . . X 3 5 X . 1 .
$$ | . . X , 4 6 . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Anyway, back to the original question. Anybody intrested in playing regularly against me/training with me?
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a training partner
Chew Terr wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Or why not play here?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 0 . . . .
$$ | . . a X 7 C 6 . .
$$ | . . 4 9 8 . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I think that's optimistic reading.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 8 0 . . .
$$ | . . a X 7 . 6 . .
$$ | . . 4 . 9 . . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


The checking extension seems like an important issue.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a training partner
This pattern occurs several times in the GoGoD database. In all the cases I looked at, white didn't jump out of his seat and say "That's an overplay! Now I must punish you with death!" In fact, I didn't ever see white try to exploit the bad aji in the area right away. I couldn't even find two games where the situation is handled the same way. Below are a couple of ways I found played.

If white later gets the :wc: stone in place, this becomes possible:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 2 3 8 . . .
$$ | . . . X 1 4 X . W .
$$ | . . X . 5 . 7 9 . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

White seals black off from the center.

Or, there is this possibility if white doesn't get the :wc: stone in place above:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 2 3 8 . . .
$$ | . . . X 1 4 X 7 . .
$$ | . . X . 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

:w7: is a common tesuji.

There is even this crude way to play when white just wanted to ensure life:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 2 6 . . . .
$$ | . . 4 X 1 5 X . . .
$$ | . . X 3 9 8 7 0 . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , X . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X X . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O X 2 . .
$$ | . . X O O X O X . .
$$ | . . X O . . 1 . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , X . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .[/go]


So I would think the lesson is, the two-space extension may leave more gaps for your opponent to exploit, but there are no obvious "punishments" in a general sense. If your opponent plays it against you, use your reading skills and work out some solutions that look good for you in the game. Once you have those sequences worked out, don't rush to play them, but keep them in the back of your mind (or, to paraphrase Iwamoto Kaoru, as "arrows in your quiver"). Don't fire one too early, but keep them for when you know which arrow to fire.

(I'm making all kinds of grammar errors tonight, so please forgive any I've missed editing.)
Author:  nnk [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a training partner
hi mnemonic,

i'm in theory about that level (but i have a hunch much weaker than you, we'd have to try i guess). i tend to agree with most wise people here, not because i know what i'm talking about though: i reached a sort of resolution that i won't learn any joseki/fuseki without understanding it fully, i would rather play and figure it out the slow way. this might mean i'll never get really strong, but i'm playing for fun, so i don't care. pre-defined patterns, openings and such were the reason i never really started playing chess, for instance. i was seduced by go because of it's complexity/flexibility, and i guess i'm just holding on tight to that "fascination" and mistery, not wanting to "know too much" (in the sense of knowing more than i can grasp)

if you want to play, i would be very interested. i'm in the same timezone as you, though i tend to work usa hours (i think we can always work something out, provided my dog allows me to play :) ). i'm also reasonably close, so a "real" game and a beer once in a blue moon is not completely out of the question either :)

i guess we could try a game or two, see how far in strength we are, unless you already found your "boxing bag" ;)

have fun, regardless. aufwiedersehen
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a training partner
Falling back on you own resources is pretty much what you have to do, anyway. :)

Getting a training partner your own strength is a nice idea. However, it is hard to bootstrap yourself in this game. There is so much to it. ;)

If you want to improve your opening, here is an idea. Play even games against someone who is around 5 stones stronger than you. Stop at around move 30 and assess the board together. Later stop at around move 50 to assess. Rinse and repeat. :)

Someone 5 stones stronger than you has a different view of the game, but not so different that you can't learn a lot. :)
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Bill Spight wrote:
Rinse and repeat. :)
:mrgreen:
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