It is currently Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:58 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Komi vs Handicap
Post #1 Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:58 am 
Dies with sente
User avatar

Posts: 74
Location: Near Denver, Colorado
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 6
Rank: OGS 17K
KGS: psk31
OGS: psk31
I was playing BasicBot 19x19 on KGS last night when I came across a wrinkle in the Chinese rules that I wasn't aware of, that is, white gets an extra point of Komi for each handicap stone black has at the beginning of the game. Somewhere in my simple noob mind this seems to totally offset the purpose of taking a handicap. In other words, why take a 5 stone handicap if I'm giving white 5 extra Komi points?

Thanks.


Edit - can't believe I misspelled handicap :oops:

_________________
"Play confidently. Make the best of mistakes."
- Janice Kim, Learn to Play Go Vol. 1


Last edited by psk31 on Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Komi vs Handicapp
Post #2 Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:04 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 932
Location: New York, NY
Liked others: 146
Was liked: 150
Rank: KGS 1k
Universal go server handle: judicata
I don't do that. In handicap games, I typically see 0.5 komi.

That said, one stone is worth more than one point, so it certainly should not offset the handicap-just mitigate it slightly.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Komi vs Handicapp
Post #3 Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:05 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 5286
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 957
Was liked: 1336
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
I think that this may be a counting issue, not a handicap issue.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Komi vs Handicapp
Post #4 Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:06 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1449
Liked others: 1562
Was liked: 140
Rank: KGS 6k
GD Posts: 892
Because each of those stones count as a point for you. So, if white didn't get those extra komi points, he would be giving you extra points.

_________________
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Komi vs Handicapp
Post #5 Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:08 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8821
Liked others: 2602
Was liked: 3009
Each handicap stone is worth about 14-15 points by Chinese scoring. The komi make it worth about 13-14 points. I am sure that there are historical reasons for the offsetting komi, but I do not know what they are. Anyway, the offset is slight.

On KGS, there is a very good reason for the offset. Each stone on the board is worth a point by Chinese scoring, but not by Japanese scoring, which is more popular. The one point offset keeps the ratings consistent, regardless of which form of scoring you use. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Komi vs Handicapp
Post #6 Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:13 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 589
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 114
Rank: 2 dan
psk31 wrote:
I was playing BasicBot 19x19 on KGS last night when I came across a wrinkle in the Chinese rules that I wasn't aware of, that is, white gets an extra point of Komi for each handicapp stone black has at the beginning of the game. Somewhere in my simple noob mind this seems to totally offset the purpose of taking a handicapp. In other words, why take a 5 stone handicapp if I'm giving white 5 extra Komi points?

Thanks.


Because in chinese rules you get points for those stones, there is reverse komi if you do nothing. Those points for white do not give him komi, but just stop black getting extra reverse-komi over and above the handicap.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Komi vs Handicapp
Post #7 Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:14 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4504
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1580
Was liked: 651
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
In my experience of numerous handicap games including reverse komi games, I believe that in practice 1 stone is worth about 15 points in blitz games, 10 points in average speed real time games (such as default KGS timings), and about 6 or 7 in turn based / correspondence games.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Komi vs Handicap
Post #8 Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:28 pm 
Dies with sente
User avatar

Posts: 74
Location: Near Denver, Colorado
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 6
Rank: OGS 17K
KGS: psk31
OGS: psk31
Thanks everyone. So much more to learn...

I was aware of some handicap games going with the .5 Komi and had even heard of the negative Komi in some instances and that made sense to me. It was a counting issue since I didn't notice it until KGS showed the scoring.

I'm also learning you have to be very quick at changing the settings for the bot games or someone else grabs the bot before you can. Next time I'll make sure to change the rules to Japanese to see how that works.

_________________
"Play confidently. Make the best of mistakes."
- Janice Kim, Learn to Play Go Vol. 1

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Komi vs Handicap
Post #9 Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:46 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1402
Liked others: 691
Was liked: 457
Rank: AGA 3k KGS 1k Fox 1d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
psk31 wrote:
I'm also learning you have to be very quick at changing the settings for the bot games or someone else grabs the bot before you can. Next time I'll make sure to change the rules to Japanese to see how that works.

Note that changing the rules to Japanese won't really change anything in that regard. In a 5-stone game, White won't get his 5 extra komi, but Black won't get 5 extra points for his 5 extra stones, so it evens out.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Komi vs Handicap
Post #10 Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:58 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2262
Liked others: 1180
Was liked: 549
psk31 wrote:
I'm also learning you have to be very quick at changing the settings for the bot games or someone else grabs the bot before you can. Next time I'll make sure to change the rules to Japanese to see how that works.

Bots use Chinese rules, because when they're playing each other, they don't know how to mark dead stones, so they just keep playing until all the stones have been removed.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Komi vs Handicap
Post #11 Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:55 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 702
Liked others: 165
Was liked: 104
Rank: German 2 dan
xed_over wrote:
psk31 wrote:
I'm also learning you have to be very quick at changing the settings for the bot games or someone else grabs the bot before you can. Next time I'll make sure to change the rules to Japanese to see how that works.

Bots use Chinese rules, because when they're playing each other, they don't know how to mark dead stones, so they just keep playing until all the stones have been removed.


Actually, some (all the good ones, I think) bots do mark dead stones. However, if they disagree (this happens frequently), they need and use the "playing on" option.

_________________
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group