It is currently Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:59 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #1 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:08 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 932
Location: New York, NY
Liked others: 146
Was liked: 150
Rank: KGS 1k
Universal go server handle: judicata
Janice Kim (Learn to Play Go Series - very, very good for beginners) calls a stone that prevents an opponent from forming a tigers mouth (in this case, when two stones are already diagonal) the "pivot."

I am wondering whether there is another term (English, Japanese, Korean, or whatever) for it, because "pivot" doesn't seem common. It may have just been a useful way for Kim to describe what a vital point often looks like, but I don't know. Not really a big deal-just curious.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Pivot
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . O . . .|
$$ . . . X O . . B .|
$$ . . X . X O O . .|
$$ . . . . X X X O .|
$$ . . . . . . . X .|
$$ . . . . . . . X .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #2 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:37 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8627
Liked others: 1485
Was liked: 1462
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
I'm not sure about the exact situation you describe (blocking a tiger's mouth), but you could use 急所(きゅうしょ) in Japanese or 급소 in Korean to mean "vital point".

You'll see these words a lot in go problem books (if the answer involves hitting what looks to be a vital point).

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #3 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:41 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 932
Location: New York, NY
Liked others: 146
Was liked: 150
Rank: KGS 1k
Universal go server handle: judicata
Gotcha, but she uses the term to describe disallowing the tiger's mouth to form, and not just in life & death problems (she also uses "vital point," -- in the illustrated problem, it just happens to be both).

Dunno, we may just say "prevent the tiger's mouth."

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #4 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:43 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8627
Liked others: 1485
Was liked: 1462
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
There's probably a word for it, but I'm not great at go terms.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #5 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:43 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2060
Location: Texas
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 171
Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 264
KGS: Chew
I believe I've heard 'point of symmetry', too. Pivot's short and intuitive, though.

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #6 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:54 am 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 193
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Liked others: 74
Was liked: 29
Rank: 2d EGF and KGS
GD Posts: 1005
Universal go server handle: sverre
I would describe the move as a peep, but that is a wider term than pivot, I guess.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #7 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 10:02 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1840
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 89
Was liked: 835
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
I'm pretty sure there isn't another way of expressing a move that fits such a description precisely. Though depending on the context, a pivot could also be called a tower peep or a vital point (as seen in your particular example).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #8 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 10:04 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1556
Liked others: 365
Was liked: 289
Rank: 2d-2k
In 'Attack and Defense' it is the Angle Tesuji.

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #9 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 10:57 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1338
Location: Finland
Liked others: 47
Was liked: 122
Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
I haven't seen the term used before, but for some reason, for a non-english speaker, the usage seems very natural. The position kind of "pivots" around that stone.

_________________
Offending ad removed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #10 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 10:59 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1435
Location: California
Liked others: 53
Was liked: 169
Rank: Out of practice
GD Posts: 1104
KGS: fwiffo
I don't think pivot is a very good word for that move. I'd use "pivot" to describe a change of direction. In my mind, a second approach after a pincer would be an example of a move I'd call a "pivot".

_________________
KGS 4 kyu - Game Archive - Keyboard Otaku

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #11 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:31 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 789
Liked others: 83
Was liked: 103
GD Posts: 600
Actually "pivot" is something like "axis", but in the context with go I'd rather call it "key point". Here it is a special kind of key point though.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #12 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:34 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 166
Location: London / Vancouver
Liked others: 24
Was liked: 12
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
GD Posts: 42
KGS: Nikolas73
DGS: Nikolas73
fwiffo wrote:
I don't think pivot is a very good word for that move. I'd use "pivot" to describe a change of direction. In my mind, a second approach after a pincer would be an example of a move I'd call a "pivot".


Agreed - this is the first time I have heard the term "pivot" and when I read this thread title I thought it had meant something else.

Sorry I do not know a better term for the move you showed... I suppose we could say it is a kind of peep.

Nik

_________________
All About Go | Go website featuring lessons, history of Go, downloads, articles by professionals and more.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #13 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 12:36 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1435
Location: California
Liked others: 53
Was liked: 169
Rank: Out of practice
GD Posts: 1104
KGS: fwiffo
The onomatopoeia I would use for that move is "poke", but that would fit any shape poking move.

_________________
KGS 4 kyu - Game Archive - Keyboard Otaku

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #14 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 12:48 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8818
Liked others: 2601
Was liked: 3008
judicata wrote:
Janice Kim (Learn to Play Go Series - very, very good for beginners) calls a stone that prevents an opponent from forming a tigers mouth (in this case, when two stones are already diagonal) the "pivot."

I am wondering whether there is another term (English, Japanese, Korean, or whatever) for it, because "pivot" doesn't seem common. It may have just been a useful way for Kim to describe what a vital point often looks like, but I don't know. Not really a big deal-just curious.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Pivot
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . O . . .|
$$ . . . X O . . B .|
$$ . . X . X O O . .|
$$ . . . . X X X O .|
$$ . . . . . . . X .|
$$ . . . . . . . X .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|[/go]


I would call this play a peek. :)

But see http://senseis.xmp.net/?Jaw

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #15 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 12:56 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2352
Liked others: 15
Was liked: 3416
The Japanese term is ago wo tsuku = " to strike the chin", though the real meaning behind that is " to deliver an uppercut". In some cases you can use kado (corner angle). It is most definitely not a peep or a poke, and I think pivot has usually been reserved in English for a Tennozan move, a vantage point between two opposing positions,

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #16 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:55 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 754
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 144
Rank: Something Dan
GD Posts: 720
Er... doesn't Janice Kim like to make up weird terminology in her books?

I believe that on the page after "the pivot" is introduced, she also refers to, "the alien shape."

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Another term for "Pivot"?
Post #17 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 2:02 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8818
Liked others: 2601
Was liked: 3008
Violence wrote:
Er... doesn't Janice Kim like to make up weird terminology in her books?

I believe that on the page after "the pivot" is introduced, she also refers to, "the alien shape."


Making up English go terminology is a pastime for a number of people. English go literature is still a new field. We will eventually have an established vocabulary. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group