Feels like I'm trying to put out a forest fire by throwing firewood at it....

Do you have any examples that you might like to discuss?

Invasions as a whole is a massively diverse topic. In any given situation you might have options including contain lightly, force it in one direction, keep it low, try to kill, etc. etc. - all of which are types of 'contain'. The correct moves to play will vary wildly, and good moves become bad depending on the surrounding stones.

It is possible to look at specific invasions as a way to get a feel for what is generally a good idea.

Okay, say something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What would you do next? How do you react to the marked white stone?

1. Decide if the invasion shall be contained.

2. Determine how much the invasion wants to take away.

3. Set a goal how many points more than the opponent you want to gain from attacking.

Probably not successfully by me.


Everything it can get its mitts on, and the little dawg. too.


(Wonders if I've ever GAINED points by attacking yet...)

Robert's criteria are, of course, a good guideline - but so very difficult to follow, and even more difficult to know if you're following them correctly. Go is hard

In this example, white's invasion is a relatively early invasion. There is lots of room, and not that many stones on the board, so my first thought is that as black I can't do anything terribly harsh. I can aim to harrass it a bit, though. In the context of 'contain', I don't really have a preference. I would be happy to contain white in the corner if I get a wall, but also happy to contain white on the side if I keep the corner.

The first move I think of is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This kick is often a strong way to push white around a bit. Black sort-of-secures the corner in sente (white's 3-3 invasion may still work later, but black can work to prevent that too). Black may continue to harrass, too, as white isn't really alive. Equally, white must be happy with making a mostly-live group in black's moyo.


If I wanted to play something else, I have several other options. For instance:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . a . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . X . . . c . X b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a would be a way to say 'live on the side or corner if you want, my moyo will be overwhelming'. b says 'the corner is mine, live if you must' (but might not be great if white can treat his stone lightly). c just lets white get on with living so that black can go and do something else - not the harshest way of playing, but often okay.

None of these moves are hugely aggressive, or deadly powerful. This is because black is not overwhelmingly strong, and white has invaded at a opint where he has lots of potential to play lightly or live quite easily. For this reason, I am content to take profit (either as a wall or as the corner territory) and let white deal with his stones. There is no need to 'contain' more than this.

Thanks, Amnal. Maybe my problem is overreacting too soon.

And thanks, too, RobertJasiek. It will probably be excellent advice, sometime further along in my learning process.

The fact that you use the word 'contain' suggests that you may be setting the bar too high for yourself. As a general rule, invasions are not contained. Most reasonable invasions are made with enough room to run out. ( Corner invasions are a notable exception )
The first verb that you might want to use when thinking about defending against invasions is 'limit', not 'contain'.

There is a process of give and take here. The invading player does not want to overextend and get killed. The defender does not want to get greedy and lose a bunch of points to an invader. Among experienced players, the invader plays just deep enough that he is fairly sure that he won't get killed, and the defender tries to build walls to limit the damage and maybe use those walls to get territory elsewhere.

So be prepared to concede a little potential territory. Keep in mind that you don't have to kill it. Often your best result comes from chasing it, knowing all the while that you are not going to catch it. And when it finally gets away, you will have a strong bunch of stones that you can use for something else.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

The corollary to this is that when you invade your opponent's territory, usually you will do better planning by to run out rather than hunker down and make eyes. ( Again, corner invasions are the exceptions )

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

At a basic level:

Work out which area of yours you think is most valuable. Approach the invading group in a way that starts sealing that area off. If you can also keep the pressure on that group, it's a bonus. You'll learn how to do that second part with experience.

When trying to contain a snake-like group, don't get too close. Falling back a little bit makes it harder for it to break through your containment line.

_________________
David

Go Game Guru: Learn Go | How to Get Better at Go | Go Game Shop | Go Boards | Baduk TV

Read.

This response probably sounds snarky, but I think there's no other way.

_________________
be immersed

Until you're about strong SDK, you don't know yet what to read, so that is what you have to learn first.

I kind of disagree. IMO, the scenario you describe happens because you do not yet have enough practice. Yeah, you may read out some pointless stuff at first, but if your focus is solely on reading, your selection of candidate moves will become refined.

_________________
be immersed

I don't see where we disagree. The lack of practice is the point: You will have gathered enougth practice once you have reached a strong kyu grade, maybe 2-3k. At 6-7k (that's the area where I am currently) you cannot read out sequences, because it is exactly as you said: you read out pointless stuff. After reading you have to judge the situation, and that's where mid-SDK and weaker players still fail at.

Kirby, I'm curious of what you think of David's advice below. It is essentially echoes what Yilun Yang recommends in the chapter "Choosing the Direction of Attack" in Vol 1 of his Workshop Lectures, and seems to respond to Karaklis' need as well.

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Well, it depends upon what you mean by reading. If you mean calculation of variations, for an early invasion, give me a break! Most kyu players cannot reliably read out a 3x3 square, and invasions usually occur in areas 2 - 3 times that size. To ask a rank beginner to read out invasions is to ask him to court frustration.

More modest goals, are, however, possible. For instance, it may be feasible to read out whether an invasion can be contained. But an important thing, as karaklis points out, is to learn the objects of reading. Is there enough room (or play) for the opponent to live? to make an eye? Etc. Not to discourage reading. But, as Sakata (among others) points out, an important part of reading is judging the results of your calculations. If by reading you mean not only calculation, but selection of moves to read and assessment of results, then yes, reading is very important.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

First, some general comments. In general, invasions, especially invasions early in the game, cannot be contained. If you can do so, that is usually a good idea, especially early on, because you can use the influence you get to make territory elsewhere, sometimes even on the other side of the board. More typically, you attack invasions without either killing them or containing them. Your gain comes from accomplishing other goals while you attack. Often the first response to an invasion is to solidify your own territory while preventing the invader from making life. If you can prevent the invader from making a base, that is even better. Then the invader runs out into the center, and you build up strength by continuing the attack. Especially early in the game, attack on a large scale. That may not be severe in terms of threatening to kill the invasion, but you do not expect to kill, anyway. Often the right attack is one where the invader does not know whether to reply or not. Also, when attacking a running group, it is often a good idea to get in front of it. That will not usually contain the group, but it may threaten to do so.

From what you say about feeding the fire, it may be that you are attacking too closely. In particular, unless you can read out a gain, you should not attach to invading stones. For instance, if you attach, he hanes, and you cut, then he has many possibilities to threaten your stones which are cut. His stones are cut, too, but if you lose a stone to the invader it could be a disaster, while he may save one stone by sacrificing another.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I guess, in short, I don't think it is that beneficial to come up with proverbs on how to deal with invasions (eg. in this situation, do X).

A general topic like "invasions" is so generic, that "what you should do" depends completely on the situation. So I don't think that there is one piece of super-advice that will tell someone "what" to look for. Rather, take the situation. Consider some possibilities. Pick the one you like best.

If it doesn't work well, try something new next time.

_________________
be immersed

I think it's good advice, but I don't think it's good if it keeps you from exploring possible good outcomes.

I can think of the following "invasion":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ignoring the rest of the board, I believe that it is impossible to say the best way to deal with this invasion. You have to think of possible responses:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . b . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a W c . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and pick the resulting sequence that you like best.

To say that "b is the answer to this invasion", for example, is limiting, I think.

_________________
be immersed

I guess I agree pretty much, but I'm not sure that I see why it's necessary to tell someone what their objective should be. I believe that this can be learned by experimentation.

_________________
be immersed