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 Post subject: When to stop pushing.
Post #1 Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:03 pm 
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It's a simple sequence whose brothers occurs quite often (I know there are better sequences for W, but let's keep this one for the sake of simplicity).

I'm black. I'm glad to push forward, keep W low, make a wall that goes well with the top hoshi stone. I could do that up to the right edge :)

But at a moment, I'd like to play around a because if W does, he neutralizes the wall. When is the good moment for that, and where to play ?

I'd like too to play around b. Is it a good idea ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ +------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . b . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . 5 7 9 . . . .
$$ | . . . . 4 6 8 0 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop pushing.
Post #2 Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:05 pm 
Tengen
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If those are the only stones on the board, I would definitely let White push me all the way to the right edge :)

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop pushing.
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:23 pm 
Gosei
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Tryphon wrote:
But at a moment, I'd like to play around a because if W does, he neutralizes the wall.

Au contraire. Influence is for attacking. The minute white plays :w1:, you play :b2:. Notice the potential profit you get in the top left corner. You should expect even more profit the stronger your wall gets, and the closer you force him to play to it. To say that the wall is neutralized by :w1: is wrong - it rather just gives you a target to attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ +------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X X , . .
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]

Now obviously, a black play at :w1: is good too. But when? Well, if you notice on the bottom, white is pushing the cart from behind, which is bad. White should consider a one-space jump very soon in order to stop pushing from behind, and make you start pushing from behind yourself. After white does that is a good time to play around :w1: yourself, which both gives your wall a base and threatens to enclose a large area.

This also may help: http://senseis.xmp.net/?GettingAhead

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Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop pushing.
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:48 pm 
Honinbo

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Tryphon wrote:
It's a simple sequence whose brothers occurs quite often (I know there are better sequences for W, but let's keep this one for the sake of simplicity).

I'm black. I'm glad to push forward, keep W low, make a wall that goes well with the top hoshi stone. I could do that up to the right edge :)


At first I thought that you were asking about White's play. White is pushing, Black is extending. :)

It is well known that building a wall on the fourth line facing the center is better (on an empty board) than building a wall on the third line facing the edge. Every time that you let White push you you are gaining points (unless White needs to secure his group). :)

Quote:
But at a moment, I'd like to play around a because if W does, he neutralizes the wall.


This is a common amateur misconception. A single play, even on the ideal point, cannot neutralize a strong wall. Already Black's wall is too strong.

Quote:
When is the good moment for that, and where to play ?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ +------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X 1 3 . .
$$ | . . . . O O O O . 2 4 .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


A 5 space extension is about as far as you can go. You do not want to leave White room for a regular base.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ +------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X 1 3 . .
$$ | . . . . O O O O . 2 4 .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


:b7: is inefficient, too close to the wall. But if Black does not pincer from this side, White has room to make a base with a play at "a".

Quote:
I'd like too to play around b. Is it a good idea ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ +------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . b . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . 5 7 9 . . . .
$$ | . . . . 4 6 8 0 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


Not as good as "a". :)

----

BTW:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ +------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X 1 . . .
$$ | . . a . O O O O 5 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


The turn at :b5: is bigger than it looks. Even without the threat to play at "a". :) I was taught that it is as big as an enclosure. Now I think that it is usually not quite that big. (In this case it is, because of "a".)

_________________
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 Post subject: Getting ahead
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:46 pm 
Tengen
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One thing that nobody mentioned explicitly, but was shown, is that when you are crawling along the third line, often you can skip a space to get ahead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X 1 3 . .
$$ | . . . . O O O O C 2 4 .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


And because of the edge of the board at your back, black cannot profitably push through:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 Black goes noplace
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . O O O O 1 O O .
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 2 3 4 .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


Usually, you do not need to go four stones before skipping. Three is common, and two is seen sometimes ( although the aji with two is often bad. )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . O O O . O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


===========================================================================

The last little tip about pushing is that when you are behind, you can step away to try to get ahead again:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . B . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O O O . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]



If he wants to stay connected, you get ahead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 1 3 . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X X . 2 . . . .
$$ | . . . . O O O . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


If he plays too solidly and low, you get ahead like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X X . . . 3 . .
$$ | . . . . O O O . O O 2 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


...or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X X . . . 3 . .
$$ | . . . . O O O . O O . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


...and this leaves a cutting point at 'a':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X X . 3 2 . .
$$ | . . . . O O O . O O 4 a . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


...or at 'a' and 'b':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X X . 3 2 . .
$$ | . . . . O O O . O O 5 4 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a 6 b . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: When to stop pushing.
Post #6 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:17 pm 
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Thanks to you all, I think I understood better the sequence :)

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop pushing.
Post #7 Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:40 am 
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There is a general rule for pushing which I grasphed while listening to one of guo juans audio lectures:

You can push until the opponents hane is playable!

If you push like this white will certainly play the hane, this is not good for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X X 1 2 . . . .
$$ | . . . . O O O . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


Therefore black should try to get ahead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O O O . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]



some moves before:

This 1 is playable because white cannot hane at a

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . X X X 1 a . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O O O . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: When to stop pushing.
Post #8 Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:38 pm 
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Contact Fights explains this (when to stop). I went through it this weekend and found it very enlightening. (It's basically an interactive book).

Basically the rule is to continue the contact until your group has 5 liberties. At which point you may continue if your opponent has fewer than 6 liberties. Once your group has 6 or more liberties you shouldn't continue the contact fight (take sente).

Obviously other concerns (life and death, etc.) can trump matters, but it's a reasonable rule.

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 Post subject: Re: When to stop pushing.
Post #9 Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:07 am 
Dies in gote
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Jonas wrote:
There is a general rule for pushing which I grasphed while listening to one of guo juans audio lectures:

You can push until the opponents hane is playable!


Wow. :o This makes perfect sense ! Thank you !

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tartrate vs. redrose game

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