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 Post subject: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
Post #1 Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:04 pm 
Dies in gote
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This showed up in a recent game I played.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c What's next?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In my actual game, I got muscled out of the corner. I don't even want to show you the moves, it was embarrassing. It started with Black hane at a and then it led to a ko, it was just a mess. I suppose I could have pincered White's approach to the 4-4, but I didn't want to just ignore such a brazen bump up against my corner.

What I'd like to know is, what are some common approaches and responses to the 3-4 point keima corner enclosure? All I can find are joseki related to the 3-4 point, without the enclosure already in place. How might I start thinking about this situation?

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 Post subject: Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
Post #2 Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:44 pm 
Lives in sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 6 . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 5 8 . . . 0 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last edited by Gomoto on Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
Post #3 Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:18 pm 
Dies in gote

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The reason you can't find any information on "approaching" a 3-4 enclosure is that it is strong. Approaching a group implies that you want to play stones near it, and playing close to strong groups (aka thickness) is rarely the correct direction.

If you do find yourself playing near a 3-4 enclosure you usually should play some sort of attachment or shoulder hit, with the intent of overstrengthening the enclosure. In Gomoto's sequence, white gets a few stones outside and takes an extension, while black takes the corner really really thoroughly. This is a pretty standard idea. The thought is that if white had extended without attaching first, black would approach the group with an extension from the corner. If black plays such a move now, it will be attacked instead of building.

It sounds like a good result for white, but if W never pressured from the outside like this, the enclosure does still have some invasion aji, way down the line. Black got rid of that, so it's actually a pretty even trade.

Once attachment style fighting starts, just do your best to keep your stones either strong or well-sacrificed. The correct sequence is highly dependent on the rest of the other stones nearby, so I don't think it's really important to memorize any more than the line Gomoto gave.


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 Post subject: Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
Post #4 Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:43 pm 
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You could browse some of the possible sequences at http://josekipedia.com/#path:qdtt


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Post #5 Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:51 pm 
Honinbo
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Quote:
I got muscled out of the corner. ... It was a mess...
How might I start thinking about this situation?
Quote:
The correct sequence is highly dependent on the rest of the other stones nearby
Hi Applebaps,

To reiterate existing replies: studying contact fights is very helpful. Examples: Bruce Wilcox's Contact Fights; Go problems, life-and-death problems, tesuji problems; (human or AI) sequence references, with emphasis on local techniques. (Global evaluation is of course always important, too; another beast.)


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 Post subject: Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
Post #6 Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:05 pm 
Honinbo

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Applebaps wrote:
This showed up in a recent game I played.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c What's next?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In my actual game, I got muscled out of the corner. I don't even want to show you the moves, it was embarrassing. It started with Black hane at a and then it led to a ko, it was just a mess.


I'm curious, now. I'll try to guess what happened..

Something like this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c me guessing
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 8 . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 5 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c me guessing
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 C O O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If that *is* what happened, you might consider this alternative:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c one possible option
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 X 4 7 . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
Post #7 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:51 am 
Dies in gote
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Very helpful posts, everyone, thank you!

Got my work cut out for me, then, as usual.

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 Post subject: Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
Post #8 Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:26 pm 
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There is a huge work done on sensei library for such questions.

For example, I found this one: https://senseis.xmp.net/?35AttachmentAg ... rEnclosure

ATN


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 Post subject: Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
Post #9 Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:56 pm 
Honinbo

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atn wrote:
There is a huge work done on sensei library for such questions.

For example, I found this one: https://senseis.xmp.net/?35AttachmentAg ... rEnclosure

ATN


There are at least two books about enclosure josekis.

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