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 Post subject: Re: Can a double sente position exist?
Post #41 Posted: Mon May 13, 2024 5:52 am 
Gosei

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RobertJasiek wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
to reach the best defintion, you have only to change the wording of you naive defintion, without introducing explicitly values you have to calculate.


What is your related suggestion of some, IYO, possibly better definition modifying my naive one?

OK with my method the defintion look like the following.

Definition of a sente position P:
Let’s the players play the game G made of the local position P, a rich environment at a high temperature, and black to play.
The ambient temperature will drop slowly until a temperature t at which black (resp. white) COULD play locally in P and reach however the best score.
If at this temperature t, white (resp. black) MUST play in the environment to reach the best score, then the position is said to be a black (resp. white) sente position.


Note that this defintion do not use values you have to calculate and compare, and do not use the undefined wording "sente sequence" or "gote sequence".

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 Post subject: Re: Can a double sente position exist?
Post #42 Posted: Mon May 13, 2024 8:27 am 
Judan

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Is this a definition just for me or do you suggest it to be easily understood by all players?

(For my better understanding: "black to play" - why not "white to play"?)

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 Post subject: Re: Can a double sente position exist?
Post #43 Posted: Mon May 13, 2024 9:49 am 
Gosei

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RobertJasiek wrote:
Is this a definition just for me or do you suggest it to be easily understood by all players?

Basically it was an answer for you.
It is OC also for all go players knowing how to play a game in a rich environment.
For the other players I can OC replace the rich environment by an ideal environment like the set of gote area {0.01, 0.02, 0.03 ...., 99.98, 99.99, 100.00} but I would clearly prefer to use the rich environment.
In this context, before giving my definition of a "sente position", it is essential to firstly explain how to play a game with a rich environment. I guess you do not need such explanation (otherwise you can just open another topic on this forum and will help you).

RobertJasiek wrote:
(For my better understanding: "black to play" - why not "white to play"?)

It is only a pure convention by analogy with a real go game. It does not matter but a choice has to be made.
What is important here is to choose who is to play in G in order to show the go player that G is not a position but a game.

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 Post subject: Re: Can a double sente position exist?
Post #44 Posted: Thu May 16, 2024 10:11 am 
Gosei

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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
to reach the best defintion, you have only to change the wording of you naive defintion, without introducing explicitly values you have to calculate.


What is your related suggestion of some, IYO, possibly better definition modifying my naive one?

OK with my method the defintion look like the following.

Definition of a sente position P:
Let’s the players play the game G made of the local position P, a rich environment at a high temperature, and black to play.
The ambient temperature will drop slowly until a temperature t at which black (resp. white) COULD play locally in P and reach however the best score.
If at this temperature t, white (resp. black) MUST play in the environment to reach the best score, then the position is said to be a black (resp. white) sente position.


Note that this defintion do not use values you have to calculate and compare, and do not use the undefined wording "sente sequence" or "gote sequence".
As I said in another post the defintion above was only an answer to Robert question. In addition you can see that I use the wording "with my method the defintion LOOKS LIKE the following".
The reason for that is simple: my "real" definition uses explicitly the way I use a rich environment while in the proposal above I tried to avoid showing how works in detail a game in a rich environment.
As a consequence I am not quite happy with the defintion above while it looks an improvement comparing to the naive defintion proposed by Robert.
If someone is interested I can show you how I use a rich environment and what is my best defintion of a sente move.

BTW how do you analyse the following position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X . . . O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
Sente, gote?
This position seems a good test for your own defintion of a sente or gote position.

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