Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Black to checkmate in three (oh sorry, wrong game).
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . OOO . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . OX. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a game I'm playing against a bot so don't worry about helping me cheat. I have multiple concerns in the position: White splitting at C13 seems to be highly threatening to my top left group. Likewise, I have a weakness at C15. What's also concerning is the cut at F4 if I allow white to capture the the stones at D5. I would love to kill the D13 group starting with a move like E15 but I'm afraid that my position is too weak for this. What do you think? Perhaps a separate move altogether?

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

You have so many weakness to defend that it's hard to decide. The cut at C13 can be severe, true, but white E6 would be so painful you very much want to capture that sooner rather than later... So can we find a way to protect against both?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c connect
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 4 X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 1 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That should do the trick. If at , then at and you win the race.

Though, if he doesn't cooperate and directly cut? Hum... You should give way, and then attack his two stones.

Edit: Also, you really want to come back to the bottom right.

Why don't you finish the game and then post it for review? I'm sure there are things to talk about before this point, and you'll also have some idea of why your choice went right or wrong afterwards.

Given your concerns, what are the three best candidate moves for Black that you see?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I'm torn between C13 and E6 which is why I posted the question. I would just post the whole game for review but I thought this made for an interesting puzzle and wanted to use it to learn something. C11 is also on my mind. I would consider C13 and E6 to be a form of miai as I'm almost certain my opponent will respond accordingly. Bki: Is that the way real Go players think? Goodness...

Edit: What do you think of giving up the top left and moving towards development in the top right?

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

OK. C-13, E-06, and C-11. How would you rank them, and why?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

From my perspective, I'm going to lose the top left or the bottom left. The bottom left corner looks like a better exchange for white and therefore I'm leaning towards E-06. Between C-11 and C-13? I like C-11 rather than the direct block

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

You mean like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Develop top right?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What do you think?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Well, I would take at E-06 first, then do something like K-13 after my opponent splits my top left. If white plays somewhere else, I'd probably defend the top left as well.

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

OK, so your two top candidates are C-11 and E-06. I have a heuristic that may help you to compare the two. Treat them as miai, so that if you get one, they get the other.

In this case that produces these comparisons.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Protect the bottom left?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Vs.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Protect the left side?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think that E-05 is better for White in the bottom left, so I had White make that play.

Does this help?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

It does. Many thanks Bill! I appreciate Bki and skydyr's responses as well.

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

If there are two places you need to play then something has gone wrong earlier.

Would this be an indication that one is playing too thin?

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

I wouldn't say thin, as that is a rather higher-level concept. More that you are missing vital points of local shapes.

So this whole idea of "shape" and making "proper shape": Is it the kinda thing, like learning to make life, that I'm supposed to learn, understand, get it under my belt and move on or is it more like attack and defense where I'll spend the rest of my life working on it?

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

Shape, learning to make life, attacking and defending ... yeah, all concepts you'll not get "under your belt" in a single lifetime, I promise

Lol. I just mean is it like learning what two eyes look like where it's like "oh, ok. got it" or is it a skill that slowly develops with your understanding of the game.

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

The c13 shape problem is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . .
$$ | . . a O . .
$$ | . . X O . .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]

White can push at a and black can't block so he gets separated. So black needs to play a himself (or some other move like 2 spaces below that also fixes with some pros and cons) to connect.

The e5 shape is not quite so simple to extract, but is essentially:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ . X 2 . . .
$$ . X 1 3 . .
$$ O O X . . .
$$ . . X . W .
$$ O . X . . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ -----------[/go]

Because is atari due to the shape above after black white can get it and and then the marked stone makes it hard for the 3 stones to escape. They aren't connected anymore. It's all about connecting.

I think the difficulty is the application more than anything. I wasn't trying to be facetious or flippant, honest! It's mostly that the basic idea of attacking "kill something, or make it uncomfortable enough that I get enough strength to kill something else or make lots of points (or possibly repeat the first step until it ends up in one of those two)" is straightforward, but the application isn't. The idea of good shape, e.g. "make it easy not to be uncomfortably pushed around, or struggle to make eyes, or find it harder to connect than I should" is simple - the application isn't ... etc etc

Everything just sort of has new wonders to unfold and marvel at no matter where you reach in the game.

Have you considered why Bill thought E6 was locally less of a good idea than E5 btw?

Well he said that in reference to white's move so the reason would be that E-05 cuts off the bottom group after extending.

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...