Trick move or a legit one?

Krama · #1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 6 4 7 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . c 1 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Move 7 confuses me and I have no idea how to continue. It seems like there will be a lot of fighting and ether black did an overplay or white is in trouble. This can only be two things, a new joseki or a trick move by black.

Seems like playing a and then when black plays S16 you hane ahead of three is the right way for white?
Playing b seems slow and c premature. Am I correct?

swannod · #2

It seems to you would want play c right away? To let black take the corner and take 2 seems unbearable.

Kirby · #3

Seems ok to just block at 'a' to me. You can compare to the other one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 0 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 7 1 5 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . c . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . b X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, the moves 'a', 'b', and 'c' are almost sente. Black can make a strategy to either expand the right with 'a' and 'b', or get profit on top with 'c'.

In this other one, if you just play calmly:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 6 4 7 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 5 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . c . O . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black gets some profit on the right side compared to the other variation. But there are no longer any forcing moves, and white is better on the top. Black has no forcing move at 'c', for example.

Uberdude · #4

You probably don't want to block because the exchange of that for black's connection gives the 2 stones more liberties so a later tesuji won't work. So extend at b first. See here with the tighter pincer viewtopic.php?p=140936#p140936

Uberdude · #5

Krama wrote:

Seems like playing a and then when black plays S16 you hane ahead of three is the right way for white?
Playing b seems slow and c premature. Am I correct?

No. If you hane black will cut and white cries.

Bill Spight · #6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 Simple and strong $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 7 5 4 X X 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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are fine. The rest is a fairly normal continuation.

skydyr · #7

Bill Spight wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 Simple and strong $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 7 5 4 X X 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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are fine. The rest is a fairly normal continuation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 Simple and strong $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Couldn't black offer to switch direction like this if you play :w8:

first? Granted, black likely shouldn't have pincered like this if that was the case, but it does offer the option. The cut below :b9:

also seems quite complicated.

Edit: Actually, nevermind. I'm pretty sure black collapses with proper resistance.

sliderser · #8

If you play in a Joseki and your opponent didn't play in the move it could be;
Easily you may play in that point cause it doesn't be joseki anymore. Next,you have to use your skill to read the valueable move.

Mef · #9

skydyr wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 Simple and strong $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 7 5 4 X X 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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are fine. The rest is a fairly normal continuation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 Simple and strong $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Couldn't black offer to switch direction like this if you play :w8:

first? Granted, black likely shouldn't have pincered like this if that was the case, but it does offer the option. The cut below :b9:

also seems quite complicated.

Edit: Actually, nevermind. I'm pretty sure black collapses with proper resistance.

You have probably found this line or similar, but for the sake of posterity:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 This is enough for W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 2 O O X 5 | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 8 X X 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I think this should be satisfactory for W, at least better than joseki (more solid shape, B has made an aji keshi push at :b9:

). If B descends after the clamp, I think white is happy to cut.

skydyr · **#10**

Yes, the key is :b11:

in your diagram, without which black gets an absolutely terrible result. Black can connect :b9:

to switch direction, but the group needs an extension and when white connects to the original stone, the purpose of the pincer starts looking pretty meaningless.

Trick move or a legit one?

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