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 Post subject: Is 5-5 a reasonable opening move?
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:24 pm 
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I play this opening sometimes.

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 Post subject: Re: Is 5-5 a reasonable opening move?
Post #2 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:09 pm 
Honinbo

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The 5-5 is the first play in the Upper Manchurian Fuseki. :cool:

See http://senseis.xmp.net/?UpperManchurianFuseki

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Post #3 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:10 pm 
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Hi Bill,

What's the etymology of the "Upper Manchurian" ? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Is 5-5 a reasonable opening move?
Post #4 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:52 am 
Oza

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The GoGoD database has almost 100 games with the 5-5 opening, ranging from Kitani's first use of it in 1933 (he played it several other times) to modern-day uses by players such as Yamashita Keigo and Gan Siyang.

It is reasonable in at least the sense that it has been reasoned about before being played. It was discussed first as part of Shin Fuseki theory, in particular under the headings of the principles of equilibrium and averaging, and was regarded as a highly versatile move.

Initially it often developed into one of the tochka (pillbox) shimaris, especially in the games of Hasegawa Akira and these still crop up occasionally in modern pro play.

Amateur opponents of this opening very often dive into the corner early but in pro play it is overwhelmingly more common to stay away from it (and especially they avoid the 3-3 point).

The "Upper Manchurian" appears to be absent from pro play, but a stripped down version of it, with the two corner stones, has appeared often in Matthew Macfadyen's games and Yamashita once tried it against Cho Chikun.

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Post #5 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:18 am 
Honinbo

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EdLee wrote:
Hi Bill,

What's the etymology of the "Upper Manchurian" ? :)


Here is the derivation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Chinese Fuseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


-->

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Manchurian Fuseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


-->

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Upper Manchurian Fuseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


See http://senseis.xmp.net/?ManchurianFuseki for a couple of example of the delayed Manchurian in high level play. :D

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The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

"Once in a very great while his eyes light up for a moment, and he says "Whee!" very quietly."
— Lion Miller

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Post #6 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:58 am 
Honinbo
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Hi Bill,

Thanks. I guess I was wondering how the 'Manchurian' part came about ...
was it a reference to the movie ? Or, just a 'variant' of the 'Chinese' theme ? :)

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Post #7 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:36 am 
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EdLee wrote:
I guess I was wondering how the 'Manchurian' part came about ...
was it a reference to the movie ? Or, just a 'variant' of the 'Chinese' theme ? :)


Just a variation on the Chinese theme. Although I am a fan of Khigh Dhiegh. :D

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The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

"Once in a very great while his eyes light up for a moment, and he says "Whee!" very quietly."
— Lion Miller

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 Post subject: Re: Is 5-5 a reasonable opening move?
Post #8 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:56 am 
Gosei

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Yes. The 1962 film is the best.

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 Post subject: Re: Is 5-5 a reasonable opening move?
Post #9 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:40 am 
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Seems like it was a good 'candidate' for the fuseki name.



...


OK, I'm sorry. I'll just show myself the door.


This post by Tonkleton was liked by 2 people: Anzu, Jarmo
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 Post subject: Re: Is 5-5 a reasonable opening move?
Post #10 Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:28 pm 
Judan

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The 5-5 itself is a reasonable move, but in my experience it is often a sign that subsequent moves will not be.


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 Post subject: Re: Is 5-5 a reasonable opening move?
Post #11 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:50 am 
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Online playing schedule: Up to me. lol
Actually in the morning or at night
Actually in Go every points in board is resonable except line1.

When you play in 5-5 ir show you are not concentrate about the conner to much cause your opponent can stay alive in 4-4,3-3. On the other hand, 5-5 show that you are interesting in moyo and big point in middle of the board, by the way, 4-4 is interesting same as 5-5 ,but differently, 4-4 is care about conner also."Bigger is easier to survive". That's mean 4-4 you can make surely territory bur 5-5 is not the same cause it's bigge. When you play in 4-4, your opponent can be survive in line3 by attack in 3-3 point but you stay alive in line3 that mean your opponent have a terrirory in line1&2, but you play in 5-5,yoyr opponent will stay alive in line4 bt 4-4 thar mean youe opponent have territory in line1&2&3, by the same joseki but your opponent have a bigger than you!!!

It'a true the 5-5 point is concentrate about moyo and middle area than 4-4 ,but in fact, 5-5 point is also far from the middle of the board, so that too hard to defend the territory on the middle.

In my oppinion, 5-5 is to high, like a bird that just fly one the sky, not a mansion on the rim and not a castle on a heaven.

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