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 Post subject: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:51 pm 
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Instead of just memorizing joseki, I want to be able to understand why certain moves don't work and how you'd be punished for misplaying, who gets sente etc. and really understand the concept behind the joseki instead of simply playing the sequences. Are their any online resources that goes in depth like this?

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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:10 am 
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I strongly recommend internetgoschool.com for this. Right now there are 209 lectures on joseki and over 2500 problems that go with those lectures just in joseki. There are lectures for beginners through advanced level and a lot of focus on common mistakes and how to punish them.

I would recommend the "Basic Course" first as it covers the fundamentals of shape without which joseki are harder to understand.


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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #3 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:50 am 
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I think a good approach is to review your games with particular emphasis on the corners. Note that I say corners, not joseki, because you may not be playing joseki. Go to josekipedia and see which is the first move which is not listed there and try to understand why. Then try to understand why all the previous moves in the sequence which were given there are actually playable.

But one thing to understand about joseki is that they are simply established sequences which are applicable in the right situation and cannot be blindly followed without reference to the adjacent corners.

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).


Last edited by DrStraw on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #4 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:10 am 
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Quote:
they are simple established sequences which...
cannot be blindly followed without reference to the adjacent corners entire board.


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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #5 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:45 am 
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Kogo's Joseki Dictionary is, as I understand, a little out of date, but I really like it. It's basically just a heavily commented SGF file, so you can open it in any viewer/editor of your choice. There's also a free Android app called BW-Joseki for studying while traveling.

It's a little clunky but it does provide explanations/rationale for moves; do this when you want to favour the top side, tenuki here is very risky for black, even though white claims the corner this sequence is considered even because... etc.

Since it's out of date, don't get too attached to the exact sequences. Nonetheless it's certainly a great resource for your level.

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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #6 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:00 am 
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I second DrStraw's suggestion of starting with your own games. If you have a corner where you have questions about the play, look up the sequence in a joseki dictionary or other reference, and compare the sequence of play and the result with joseki. One advantage is that the sequence came up in one of your games, so the joseki is applicable to your own play, another advantage is that you have already thought about the possible sequences of play, so that you already have some understanding to build upon. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #7 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:09 am 
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I like learning through http://ps.waltheri.net/ . There are no explanations, but it does give a lot of possibilities of moves and context in pro games.

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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #8 Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:23 am 
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I just remembered this channel. https://www.youtube.com/user/weiqimaster/videos

It's inactive, but it has a bunch of videos on joseki sequences and follow-ups that I think is exactly the sort of thing you're looking for. It shows how to punish misplays in joseki etc.


Of course, the best way would be Guo Juan's go school problem system. You can get a free 30 day trial, but I warn you. If you keep at it you'll get strong fast and end up paying for a year of subscription because her system is so effective :)


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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #9 Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:55 am 
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Semi OT, but related ... There is also the josekifarm.com site, it is a playful tool for memorizing your josekis. Just beware that the josekis there appear sometime strange. Form your own opinions.

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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #10 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:28 am 
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To all you proponents of Go Juan's training system: is it really that good? I'll give it a (free) try when I get back from my week of skiing (I found this thread because I am currently actively seeking a new tool for learning basic knowledge) and see for myself but recommendations are very convincing, anyway. How do the subscriptions work? Do you sign up for BOTH the lectures and the training system or are they independent? The way I read the description of the training system, it doesn't seem to make sense without the lecture library.

Somehow, I have gained the rank of 4 kyu (EGF) and yet my Joseki knowledge is basically nonexistent. I think I actually *know* about four possible sequences, maximum.

Even yesterday, I bungled a 3-3 invasion with the identical mistake in back-to-back games!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Left: What I played, twice. Right: What I should have played.
$$ --------------------------------------------
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . - . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . 4 X 1 . . . . - . . . . X 1 . . . .
$$ - . 8 X X O 2 5 . O . - . . X X O . . . O .
$$ - . 6 O O 3 . . . . . - . 2 O O . . . . . .
$$ - . 7 . . . . . . . . - . 3 4 . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . - . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . - . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . - . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . O . . . . . . . - . . O . . . . . . .[/go]


Perhaps I only know about two. Or even none!


I feel that my totally-bungle-the-opening-and-read-my-way-to-win-by-resignation-in-the-middle-game style won't work past about this level. Quite simply, at and above about 4 kyu (EGF), my opponents are starting to see the sneaky ladders and nets and snap-backs and are counting their liberties accurately enough to escape my dastardly plans. Some are even strong enough to not-resign and that's also annoying because my end-game is tragically weak. ;)

So, after a hugely successful year of 2017, I am resolved to make 2018 the year of filling in the knowledge -- knowledge that all my opponents seem to have, already -- in the hopes that improved knowledge combined with my over-exercised sneaky-reading, tesuji-finding and trouble-causing skills will enable me to progress. Hence the quest for a resource.

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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #11 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:26 am 
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Charlie wrote:
To all you proponents of Go Juan's training system: is it really that good?

I think so. I was already a big spaced repetition fan. I certainly have learned and retained a bunch of joseki (and other) knowledge from it.

Quote:
How do the subscriptions work? Do you sign up for BOTH the lectures and the training system or are they independent? The way I read the description of the training system, it doesn't seem to make sense without the lecture library.

It makes most sense to subscribe to both, and since the problems are directly based on the lectures, you would certainly lose something by just doing the problems without getting the background. However, you could subscribe to the training system only, and pay for the lectures a la carte.


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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #12 Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 5:48 am 
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i just found these videos a few days ago and i think they fit the need.

different videos for different josekis and he does a great job of explaining why each stone is needed and some good talk on what happens if someone diverts from the joseki.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW4TDjS ... Q3&index=2

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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #13 Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:00 pm 
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Dont learn joseki.

Review your games with Leela Zero / ELF and learn fuseki instead. This way you will learn the correct josekis for the whole board positions. You also will have to learn only the relevant josekis for the quite small number of good recent fusekis (and some refutations for the bad ones that should not be played anymore. :twisted: )

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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #14 Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 2:05 pm 
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To me, memorizing joseki is a little boring if I go about it with that mindset. What makes it more interesting is when I think of it like, "If I'm in this situation and my opponent plays this move, here's what I can do to get the advantage (or at least keep from falling behind)".

The difference in feeling is a bit subtle, but it makes it a lot more interesting if I think of the sequences in a practical way that will give me a lead in my games. I agree with the point that studying fuseki may give a more comprehensive view than just looking at joseki.

Nonetheless, the practical mindset of looking at a sequence with the intention of being prepared to gain the edge on my future opponents is more exciting to me than memorizing joseki to memorize joseki.

This doesn't answer the question in the OP. For resources on joseki, I personally have a lot of books, but if you don't have that resource, I'd recommend ps.waltheri.net and/or some of the newfangled computer AI programs that give you win percentages. GoGoD could also be a good resource. Or joining a program like the Yunguseng Dojang - Inseong has several joseki lectures.

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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #15 Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:09 pm 
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Charlie wrote:
To all you proponents of Go Juan's training system: is it really that good?


I know it's been a while, but for anyone else that comes across this post; I think so.
This is the second time I've subscribed to the full thing for a year. The first time I committed for a couple of months, then life got in the way. Now I'm about half way through my second subscription and going strong.
I often had trouble remembering sequences, examples etc. from books, and found it frustrating to have to sift through variation diagrams, play them out on the board, check them to make sure I'm getting it right etc. It just didn't seem efficient or very effective. On internetgoschool, it makes it much easier; I'm finding I'm retaining things much better, through the daily repetition. Not just for joseki but other things as well, like common invasions, reductions, joseki follow ups, attacking etc. There are plenty of problems that remind me of the general lessons that I've learnt; for example one of the step-by-step lectures talks about running ahead/controlling the centre. The problems are fairly trivial, but every few weeks now I get a reminder of the principle via the problems.
For me, having a subscription to both the lectures and the problems is the way to go. Many of the problems could stand by themselves, but I find having the explanation of why a certain result is good/bad, the principles explained etc. invaluable. As mentioned, having the problem sets makes it stick.
I recommend it to pretty much anyone who will listen.


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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #16 Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:26 am 
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negapesuo:

I have the same interest as you do, being a 9 kyu beginner. The BWD has a Joseki library included, but it's not BW code. I'm sure there's good stuff there, but I find both the screen presentation and the text to be unhelpful.

Digging around looking for old Go stuff that I've bought in the past (sometimes distant past), I just this morning found that I have Many Faces of Go. The Joseki section looks like it will be good for me, but I need a more basic understanding of what joseki is about first.

But my biggest immediate question is...

DrStraw:

Exactly, I want to understand corner play much better than I do. And how to form live groups in the corners. I'm gradually getting better at that, in a random walk sort of way. BWD is helping, particularly contact fights, but I think there's something more basic that I'm still missing. Suggestions?

3lhouse:

Do you have a pointer for where I can get the free BW-Joseki app? I'd prefer a version that runs on my PC, but anything by BW, I'm going to like!

Gomoto:

MFG has a fuseki section, but I haven't looked at it yet. Any comments about it from those here?

For the entire assembled wisdom here:

I've finished the introductory stuff and Elementary Contact Fights in BWD. So, what would you recommend as my next area of study focus:

BWD Novice Contact Fights
BWD Elementary Sector Fights
Joseki (MFG or other)
Fuseki (MFG or other)
Other (please specify!)

...?

Suggestions very greatly appreciated!

:bow:

TCS

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 Post subject: Re: Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?
Post #17 Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:48 am 
Judan

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Chaosrider2808 wrote:
For the entire assembled wisdom here:

I've finished the introductory stuff and Elementary Contact Fights in BWD. So, what would you recommend as my next area of study focus:

BWD Novice Contact Fights
BWD Elementary Sector Fights
Joseki (MFG or other)
Fuseki (MFG or other)
Other (please specify!)

...?

Suggestions very greatly appreciated!

:bow:

TCS


Joseki and Fuseki are rapidly becoming obsolete in the AI era. I would not take old material too seriously, and would look at recent pro and AI games for inspiration. :)

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Post #18 Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:26 am 
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Well...I'm not yet ready to engage the Borg.

I'd prefer to first learn how to play well in the Old School way, when there were no entities extant on Earth who could beat the best humans. From there, maybe I'll engage the Borg, and maybe I won't.

Unless there's an AI that can TEACH, I'm just going to set that entire realm aside for now.

If you could help me understand the appeal of playing against an AI rather than a human, I would sincerely appreciate it.

Thx!

TCS

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Post #19 Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:45 am 
Judan

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Chaosrider2808 wrote:
Well...I'm not yet ready to engage the Borg.

I'd prefer to first learn how to play well in the Old School way, when there were no entities extant on Earth who could beat the best humans. From there, maybe I'll engage the Borg, and maybe I won't.

Unless there's an AI that can TEACH, I'm just going to set that entire realm aside for now.

If you could help me understand the appeal of playing against an AI rather than a human, I would sincerely appreciate it.

Thx!

TCS


There is a lot of unlearning going on right now, about fuseki and joseki. If you want to study them, wait a few years for the new books to come out. Meanwhile, I think Takemiya's advice is good: Make the moves you want to play. :)

And remember, a lot of learning is caught, not taught, especially at beginning levels. For inspiration take a look at current pro and AI games.

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Post #20 Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:41 am 
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Life forever involves learning and unlearning things. Why would I expect this to be different? In any event, "waiting a few years" is not in my nature.

I worked for 20 years in the defense/aerospace industry, and I pretty regularly read "Aviation Week and Space Technology" cover to cover. In one article, an Air Force general was quoted as saying, "At some point you have to shoot the designers, and go into production!"

I'm ready to "go into production" on my current Go launch with the knowledge I either have or can fairly quickly acquire. The general's admonition is particularly appropriate if the Go technology (knowledge) is evolving rapidly. Do you really expect that knowledge to STABILIZE in a few years?

I didn't think so!

Good advice from Takemiya, and that's mostly what I do. But I'm also looking to improve what I WANT to do, with my ongoing studies.

I completely agree about a lot of learning getting caught. And yet, there's still a large role for teaching.

At the moment, I'm not looking for inspiration. I've already got plenty of that. Now, I'm looking for ways to learn better and quicker. From where I am now.

:cool:

Thx!

TCS

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