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 Post subject: Re: Playing vs reviewing games + tsumego!
Post #21 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:08 am 
Honinbo

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Does understanding something make it pleasurable? Forgive the analogy: I understand how to wash the dishes, but I don't get a lot of pleasure from it.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing vs reviewing games + tsumego!
Post #22 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:33 am 
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I think that both depends on the situation and on the person in case.

- You don't need to understand a rainbow to appreciate its beauty.
- Yet the more I know about music, the more pleasurable my listening becomes, because I recognize things I otherwise wouldn't.

In Go, I guess it depends.
Total beginners can play an amazing game and enjoy it very much, I agree.

But watching a high level game and not knowing what is happening is less pleasurable (imho) than understanding something about the game.

Another comparison. I used to follow cycling a bit. It's so much fun to follow it when you know the riders racing and their backstory and what is happening in a race.
If you just watch cycling and don't have that background, it's the most boring things to watch ever :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Playing vs reviewing games + tsumego!
Post #23 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:03 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Does understanding something make it pleasurable?

To me, the act of learning to understanding something is pleasurable, and particularly the transition from not understanding it to understanding it. I spend hours and hours on learning more math and physics, for example. I get the same "understanding high" from rich games like chess and go.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing vs reviewing games + tsumego!
Post #24 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:07 am 
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Kirby wrote:
I understand how to wash the dishes, but I don't get a lot of pleasure from it.

My solution: prop a laptop nearby and watch Redmond's AlphaGo reviews whilst washing up. :)


This post by Uberdude was liked by 2 people: Calvin Clark, swannod
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 Post subject: Re: Playing vs reviewing games + tsumego!
Post #25 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:10 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Kirby wrote:
I understand how to wash the dishes, but I don't get a lot of pleasure from it.

My solution: prop a laptop nearby and watch Redmond's AlphaGo reviews whilst washing up. :)


Are they understandable for DDK/SDK level? I might want to watch them, but not if I won't understand it :)

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 Post subject: Re: Playing vs reviewing games + tsumego!
Post #26 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:48 pm 
Honinbo

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Ian Butler wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
Kirby wrote:
I understand how to wash the dishes, but I don't get a lot of pleasure from it.

My solution: prop a laptop nearby and watch Redmond's AlphaGo reviews whilst washing up. :)


Are they understandable for DDK/SDK level? I might want to watch them, but not if I won't understand it :)


Michael Redmond is a great commentator, and I'd imagine that DDKs would enjoy the discussion as well. I've been playing devil's advocate in this thread, but his reviews are definitely entertaining.

He might be my favorite English-speaking commentator.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing vs reviewing games + tsumego!
Post #27 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:35 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Does understanding something make it pleasurable? Forgive the analogy: I understand how to wash the dishes, but I don't get a lot of pleasure from it.


And I understand how to vomit and I don't find it pleasurable. I really fail to see what you're trying to reach here.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing vs reviewing games + tsumego!
Post #28 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:51 pm 
Honinbo

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Knotwilg wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Does understanding something make it pleasurable? Forgive the analogy: I understand how to wash the dishes, but I don't get a lot of pleasure from it.


And I understand how to vomit and I don't find it pleasurable. I really fail to see what you're trying to reach here.


Simple: why do you find the Lee Sedol - Gu Li Jubango book enjoyable to read?

Sometimes I fall asleep trying to read go books. Maybe it's just a difference in preference.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing vs reviewing games + tsumego!
Post #29 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:30 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
My solution: prop a laptop nearby and watch Redmond's AlphaGo reviews whilst washing up. :)


I totally do that, but when I do my wife claims the dishes aren't cleaned as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing vs reviewing games + tsumego!
Post #30 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:26 am 
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playing applies your knowledge into the game
it's like practicing what you already know

reviewing doesn't do much help unless a stronger player helps you review and offer some insights into the game
it can help if you thought that in some spots you could've played better, like you identified your own mistakes
but more often than not, players don't recognize their own mistakes, hence ask for assistance

then tsumego it's very helpful
because when you are surrounded or your opponent is surrounded, you can quickly assess the situation
otherwise you'll often won't be sure if you/your opponent is dead/alive
the question of groups living/dead affects the whole game

say you see opponent only has 1 eye, you chase him and profit easily
or you see opponent definitely is alive, you go for a big move instead of playing locally
and besides tsumego helps your reading ability
and mix in some tesuji problems with your tsumego problems, helps your middle game as well

i tend to find it that my opening is good and lacking in reading ability rather
i find most of us non asians are in the same boat as well
hence most important is tsumego for us probably
sure we can keep on studying on opening and theories and etc., we can be like dans in opening etc.
but if we suck at tsumego/tesuji/reading, it eventually puts a stop into our games
sure we can memorize all those joseki etc., but eventually you find yourself in mid game opponent fighting his way thru and you won't be able maintain the advantage thru opening that you've achieved

tsumego is probably #1
reviews from other players #2
reading books on your own #3

sure if you are clueless, reviews help more than tsumego initially...but once you understand the basic idea "urgent before big", you'll find it's so much easier to understand the game
tsumego also helps with your memories, visualization, and translates into other skills in life as well
might as well go full blown tsumego
can even try go tsumego for a month straight with 0 games for at least 2 hours a day
and see how much strength you've gained afterwards

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