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At which rank does strength start to matter?
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=16051
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Author:  paK0 [ Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:06 am ]
Post subject:  At which rank does strength start to matter?

Hi, a bit of an abstract question, but one that I find interesting nonetheless and from some short discussions in my play group I am not alone with my confusion.

Here is a hypothetical game to illustrate my point:


The point of interest is the bottom right. This should not be a discussion of the taisha, I just selected it because it tends to lead to a complicated fight.

If we look at this to be a locally equal fight then this should turn out well for white. The wall in the upper right is lending its strength to the position and the other adjacent corner is also white. When I talked about this and similar positions with my SDK buddies(up to 1k), neither of us was scared of the fight though (aside from it being complex).

The argument for us all is that the wall on the upper right is only helpful in theory, but fights like this at our level tend to resolve themselves way before they actually reach such distant walls (aside from the occasional ladder).

Please note that this is only applicable to locally equal fights, running attacked stones into a wall, or fights closer to it, make a lot more sense to me.

So I'd like to hear some opinions, at about which rank did you start be feel the impact of walls way across the board? I am very much interested in a human perspective here, but for completeness sake I shall add LZs opinion on the matter (which did not really clarify it to me):
After 30k playouts LZ judges white ahead, about 42/58.

LZ does agree that the bottom right is the hot area and will be for the foreseeable future.


Attachments:
StrengthTest.sgf [214 Bytes]
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Author:  EdLee [ Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:00 am ]
Post subject: 

Hi pak0,
Quote:
After 30k playouts LZ judges white ahead, about 42/58.
Just curious ( and for control ), what does LZ tell you about the winrates before :b1: ? ( Because to me 42/58 seems not very far from the evaluations before :b1:, no? :study: )

Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At which rank does strength start to matter?

paK0 wrote:
So I'd like to hear some opinions, at about which rank did you start be feel the impact of walls way across the board?


11 kyu. That's when I consciously began to play the whole board. :)

But people vary. I remember a shodan scoffing at a wall I had built and asking where I was going to make territory with it. My reply, maybe on the other side of the board, he did not find convincing. ;)

BTW, for :b17:, instead of the taisha my first inclination would have been to extend to R-09 or R-10, because of the wall. What does Leela Zero say?

Also, at :b15: I would have preferred to enclose the bottom right corner, again because of the White wall. There was a time when top players would have chosen to extend on the right side instead of making either enclosure. What does Leela Zero like for :b15:? Thanks. :)

Author:  paK0 [ Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At which rank does strength start to matter?

@Ed: The initial values are about 46/54, so a slight dip for black overall.

@Bill:
:b15: Leela LZ agrees with you, Q3 is first choice with 47/53, about 3% better than my move.

:b17: LZ doesn't like the close extensions, Q9 being the best but only at 43%.
The two frontrunners are Q12 and P4, both at ~ 44% so not much better. Fighting via the taisha seems to be worse by 1-2%.
Especially Q12 is interesting, seems like the wall should be seen as more of a target than anything.

All in all pretty close win % wise. So maybe my intuition that the wall does not have too much of an influence may be right after all :D

Also maybe I didn't make it clear enough, but this is not a real game. I knew what kind of position I wanted and I went with the first sequence of semi reasonable moves to get there.




OT: Seems like its not just professionals who fall back on "what does the AI think :scratch: "

Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At which rank does strength start to matter?

paK0 wrote:
@Bill:
:b15: Leela LZ agrees with you, Q9 is first choice with 47/53, about 3% better than my move.


That's not my idea. Extending towards the wall instead of making an enclosure goes back at least three hundred years. OC, back then they made a third line extension.

Quote:
:b17: LZ doesn't like the close extensions, Q3 being the best but only at 43%.


Q3 is a typo?

Quote:
The two frontrunners are Q12 and P4, both at ~ 44% so not much better. Fighting via the taisha seems to be worse by 1-2%.
Especially Q12 is interesting, seems like the wall should be seen as more of a target than anything.


The bots seem to like the press, P-04, in general. In this case it may be viewed as wall vs. wall. (Unless White pushes an cuts. ;))

Quote:
All in all pretty close win % wise. So maybe my intuition that the wall does not have too much of an influence may be right after all :D


Yeah, the top bots don't seem to regard their walls as very strong, yet they readily make them. They are forcing us to rethink influence. :)

Quote:
Also maybe I didn't make it clear enough, but this is not a real game. I knew what kind of position I wanted and I went with the first sequence of semi reasonable moves to get there.


Oh, I already got that, thanks. :)

Author:  paK0 [ Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At which rank does strength start to matter?

@ Bill.

Yeah, I made a few edits before your reply. Q3 was indeed a typo.

As for :b15: : I didn't know you considered a side extension as an enclosure. :scratch:

Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At which rank does strength start to matter?

paK0 wrote:
@ Bill.

Yeah, I made a few edits before your reply. Q3 was indeed a typo.


Typo for what?

Quote:
As for :b15: : I didn't know you considered a side extension as an enclosure. :scratch:


I meant that Q9 was not my idea. Sorry for being unclear.

Author:  paK0 [ Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At which rank does strength start to matter?

Ah, now I get it, I edited my post wrong :oops:

It should make sense now...

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