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 Post subject: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5)
Post #1 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:46 am 
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This morning jlt and me played the first match of our Jubango (10 match series).
I was black, jlt white. 1 hour main time and 5 periods of 40 seconds Byo-Yomi. The game lasted about 2 hours.

I already did some light reviewing with Leela on this match.
In the end, it didn't seem as if white had too much trouble handling black and so I'll have to do a lot better next time.
In our jubango, a handicap will take place if one player has a 3 win lead in the series.

We'll post our entire jubango in this thread. It's a lot of fun, hopefully we'll learn something from it, too!



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Last edited by Ian Butler on Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:54 am, edited 4 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1)
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:28 am 
Gosei

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A couple of things I noticed from the early game, not by any means the most important:

For :b25:, locally the move to look at first is R12, which threatens S15. R11 doesn't have the same effect. But I would myself probably play at R9 (room for a two-space extension to either side) or S5 (it is worth learning those sorts of sequences at some point, maybe not yet).

What does :b49: accomplish? I'd take a big point at M3 or C12.

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1)
Post #3 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:57 am 
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First, nice bowls! What kind are they?

Second, I second dfan's comment about move 25 being where you could have improved your position.
- Why? Because white just played a very uninteresting move 24. Your stones at the bottom already have a base, so White's move is sort of one dimensional and doesn't require an urgent response.
- So what could be a good move 25? At this point my mind goes to the proverb "the one space jump is never wrong." That is, I would probably play K15. Later you have P13 to expand on the right, and D11 (as just one example) to expand on the left.

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1)
Post #4 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:53 am 
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Hi, I'm back, I couldn't stay to make a live review but here are a few thoughts. First, I really like the time setting, it allows us to make more thoughtful moves, like in a real tournament. Both of us made big mistakes (I made a couple of 1pt. gote moves), you managed to punish some of my mistakes, so I don't feel I had an easy game, and I found it quite entertaining. I didn't review the game with LeelaZero yet, so here is my human thinking:

:b17: I wonder if it was necessary. You secure your P18 stones, but lose sente.

:w18: I hesitated between making a sanrensei, a shimari and that move. I finally thought that C10 would be better if I want to reduce the top later.

:w26: split, to attack R11, and to prevent :black: from expanding the top too much.

:b35: I was wondering if you would treat your R11 stones lightly and make a big framework on the top instead.

:w36: but since you did not, I started by creating a weakness in your shape before reducing with :w38:

:b43: I thought you would play at J18, then K16, J17, M18, K19.

:w50: reduces J3 while indirectly attacking Q7.

:w88: stupid move. L3 would have been better.

:b95: I thought you would have played at E14, and then I would have taken the outside with F14, E13, F13.

:black: 141 well spotted! You punished my bad shape.

:black: 149 maybe you should have answered my ko threat. You hadn't run out of ko threats yet.

:white: 196 stupid move. I was connected to the outside.

:black: 197 well spotted.

:black: 205 small

:black: 217 gote.

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1)
Post #5 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:54 am 
Honinbo

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Some top of the head comments, aimed at a wide range of strength. :)

:b5: The bots today prefer the large knight’s enclosure to this one. It has a weaker hold on corner territory, but it has more outer influence.

:b7: My preferred move before the bots came along. A dual purpose move, combining pincer and extension. But the bots do not like pincers as much as humans do. There are other problems, which I will address later.

:b17: Old joseki, made obsolete in the bot era. Now Black is a bit over concentrated. As for the keima, there is a saying, Don’t let the double keima get away. The keima is an example of Leela’s preference for influence in this position.

:b21: Leela was OK with this slide? This was questionable in the 1990s.

:w22: Obsolete by now, I think. H-03 or G-03, no?

:b25: As dfan points out R-12 would have threatened the peep at S-15. The push at Q-14 would have been bad, strengthening White needlessly and compounding Black’s over concentration.
You are right. This is a puzzling position. C-12 comes to mind, but the right side is surely big. Still, a simple wedge like R-09 is hardly dynamic. Leela’s submarine suggestion is a good one. :)

:b27: Compounding Black’s over concentration.

:b29: Ditto. Surely the two step hane is better.

:w30: My feeling is to keep pushing, but this move does make Black R-11 look bad.

:b31: Strengthens White needlessly. Surely the keima at N-12 is better (double keima). Or maybe S-05, eh?

:w38: Leela screams N-12? Absolutely. :) It’s the double keima point at move 31. This is like a move at the frontier of moyos, but in this case it reduces the Black moyo on the top side and attacks Black on the right side. Again, Leela prefers influence. :D

:b49:, :b53:, :b55: Now Black likes influence? What does Black hope to accomplish? After the blunder on the top side Black has to play catch up.

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1)
Post #6 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:25 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Some top of the head comments, aimed at a wide range of strength. :)

:b7: My preferred move before the bots came along. A dual purpose move, combining pincer and extension. But the bots do not like pincers as much as humans do. There are other problems, which I will address later.

:b17: Old joseki, made obsolete in the bot era. Now Black is a bit over concentrated. As for the keima, there is a saying, Don’t let the double keima get away. The keima is an example of Leela’s preference for influence in this position.

:b21: Leela was OK with this slide? This was questionable in the 1990s.

:b49:, :b53:, :b55: Now Black likes influence? What does Black hope to accomplish? After the blunder on the top side Black has to play catch up.


I don't worry about what the bots like. I'm still human so I like to play human moves :) The day I understand why certain moves aren't favored by bots, I'll stop playing them ;)

Moves 49, 53 and 55 don't feel particularly good while I played them, but I thought I needed to do that because else white would get almost all the middle. It also (very) loosely connects my stones, or implies a connection.

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1)
Post #7 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:43 am 
Honinbo

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Ian Butler wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Some top of the head comments, aimed at a wide range of strength. :)

:b7: My preferred move before the bots came along. A dual purpose move, combining pincer and extension. But the bots do not like pincers as much as humans do. There are other problems, which I will address later.

:b17: Old joseki, made obsolete in the bot era. Now Black is a bit over concentrated. As for the keima, there is a saying, Don’t let the double keima get away. The keima is an example of Leela’s preference for influence in this position.

:b21: Leela was OK with this slide? This was questionable in the 1990s.

:b49:, :b53:, :b55: Now Black likes influence? What does Black hope to accomplish? After the blunder on the top side Black has to play catch up.


I don't worry about what the bots like. I'm still human so I like to play human moves :) The day I understand why certain moves aren't favored by bots, I'll stop playing them ;)

Moves 49, 53 and 55 don't feel particularly good while I played them, but I thought I needed to do that because else white would get almost all the middle. It also (very) loosely connects my stones, or implies a connection.


Well, the over concentration of Black after :b17: is something that humans noticed decades ago, although it is a small flaw at this point. But later your play was insensitive to that over concentration, making it worse.

You also missed two double keimas. The idea of double keima is a human one. :)

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1)
Post #8 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:48 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Some top of the head comments, aimed at a wide range of strength. :)

:b7: My preferred move before the bots came along. A dual purpose move, combining pincer and extension. But the bots do not like pincers as much as humans do. There are other problems, which I will address later.

:b17: Old joseki, made obsolete in the bot era. Now Black is a bit over concentrated. As for the keima, there is a saying, Don’t let the double keima get away. The keima is an example of Leela’s preference for influence in this position.

:b21: Leela was OK with this slide? This was questionable in the 1990s.

:b49:, :b53:, :b55: Now Black likes influence? What does Black hope to accomplish? After the blunder on the top side Black has to play catch up.


I don't worry about what the bots like. I'm still human so I like to play human moves :) The day I understand why certain moves aren't favored by bots, I'll stop playing them ;)

Moves 49, 53 and 55 don't feel particularly good while I played them, but I thought I needed to do that because else white would get almost all the middle. It also (very) loosely connects my stones, or implies a connection.


Well, the over concentration of Black after :b17: is something that humans noticed decades ago, although it is a small flaw at this point. But later your play was insensitive to that over concentration, making it worse.

You also missed two double keimas. The idea of double keima is a human one. :)


Yes, though a new one to me. So thanks for bringing it to my attention! (I've heard of it before, but never in a real game for me)

I thought I was playing the honte move by black 17 and erase part of the aji. But apparently not :lol:
Of course, the combination with my bad invasion point and then getting overconcentrated was awful indeed. Probably a bigger mistake than black 17.
Thank you, Bill.

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1)
Post #9 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:32 pm 
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Ian Butler wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Well, the over concentration of Black after :b17: is something that humans noticed decades ago, although it is a small flaw at this point. But later your play was insensitive to that over concentration, making it worse.

You also missed two double keimas. The idea of double keima is a human one. :)


Yes, though a new one to me. So thanks for bringing it to my attention! (I've heard of it before, but never in a real game for me)


De nada. :)

Quote:
I thought I was playing the honte move by black 17 and erase part of the aji. But apparently not :lol:


Well, :b17: was until recently joseki. How bad can it be? ;)

Quote:
Of course, the combination with my bad invasion point and then getting overconcentrated was awful indeed. Probably a bigger mistake than black 17.


:b27: and :b29: made the overconcentration worse. Also, your idea of :b25: pushing at Q-14 would have, as well, making :b17: a bad play. Be aware of over concentration. :)

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1)
Post #10 Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:30 pm 
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mhlepore wrote:
First, nice bowls! What kind are they?


Shinkaya :)

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1)
Post #11 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:51 am 
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here we are with the second game. Another win for jlt, an even larger one this time.
Comments in the file based on review from us both together, with some added info from Leela.



From my perspective, this is another game where I fell behind early on and never managed to catch up, always feeling I owe a few moves here and there.
Jlt is probably too strong for me to beat. He is a good opponent for me to learn from, because he punishes my overplays and takes advantage of my weaknesses.

This game I played too quickly, a lot quicker than last time. After a reading mistake in the lower left, I think I broke a little bit mentally and only recovered by the endgame. You can see that very easily in the way I play: before that mistake I make bold moves, sometimes even on the verge of overplay. After that reading mistake, I initially make some wild, unread, moves, but then slow down to passive, cowardly moves.

Anyway, it was another fun experience, though. Playing a stronger player with such time settings is highly interesting and a joy to play! This jubango is going to be jlt's to lose, and even though I don't expect to win it, I do hope to snatch a victory in an even game, if that is at all possible :)

EDIT: one more remark from my side: I need to learn to count better during a game. If I had known I was behind 25 points, I would do the decent thing and resign. However, I find it hard to count properly seeing that timer go down. I figured I was down by perhaps 15 points on the board, so with komi maybe 10 points or so.
How wrong was I :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2)
Post #12 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:11 am 
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Actually, move 79 doesn't work, and white is exactly correct to think that it simply doesn't work because white's D4 stones are strong enough with enough liberties. White just needed to respond a little differently. ;-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play and capture black's peep.
$$ | . . . X . O O . .
$$ | . . . X O . X X .
$$ | . . X O O X . O .
$$ | . . X O . X . . .
$$ | . . . O X . . X .
$$ | . X . O . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . O . X .
$$ | . O . B . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


Solution:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Solution
$$ | . . . X . O O . .
$$ | . . . X O . X X .
$$ | . . X O O X . O .
$$ | . . X O . X . . .
$$ | . . . O X . . X .
$$ | . X . O . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . O . X .
$$ | . O 2 B 1 . . . .
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Solution
$$ | . . . X . O O . .
$$ | . . . X O . X X .
$$ | . . X O O X . O .
$$ | . . X O . X . . .
$$ | . . . O X . . X .
$$ | . X 5 O 7 . . . .
$$ | . X O 4 6 O . X .
$$ | . O X B O 8 . . .
$$ | . O . 9 . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


Note that this can depend on white D4 being strong enough and/or the surroundings, so you have to read it out. For example, if we change the position up a little:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Different situation
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . X .
$$ | . X . O . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . O . X .
$$ | . O 2 B 1 . . . .
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


Now we get into some tricky tactics. Possibly depending on a ladder to the upper right, white may still be able to come out okay from this fighting though:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Tricky fighting
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . X .
$$ | . X 5 O 6 . . . .
$$ | . X O 4 . O . X .
$$ | . O X B O . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2)
Post #13 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:35 am 
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Thanks lightvector. So I won the game thanks to a move that doesn't work (probably other moves don't work either...).

I add a variation to make sure I understand your comment. Edit: my variation is wrong, see lightvector's post below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . O O . .
$$ | . . . X O . X X .
$$ | . . X O O X . . .
$$ | . . X O . X . . .
$$ | . 7 8 O X . . X .
$$ | . X 5 O . . . . .
$$ | . X O 2 3 O . X .
$$ | 9 O 4 X 1 . . . .
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]


@Ian Butler: I agree that you should count better during a game, but not that you should resign if you are behind by 25 points. I have seen many kyu players losing a "won" game, especially myself.


Last edited by jlt on Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2)
Post #14 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:45 am 
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To add to lightvector's excellent reply: when the D2 trick doesn't work, it's because of E2. So if you are strong enough to learn about D2, you should learn about the E2 response too; it's the standard critical response in this pattern, not some crazy tesuji that came up in just this game that you shouldn't be expected to remember.

Also, I recommend not resigning while you are still a kyu player. At the 3k level I have both won and lost games that "should have been resigned". Learning not to be embarrassed about losing by 25 points is a skill that is worth acquiring. :)


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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2)
Post #15 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:49 am 
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jlt wrote:
Thanks lightvector. So I won the game thanks to a move that doesn't work (probably other moves don't work either...).

I add a variation to make sure I understand your comment.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . O O . .
$$ | . . . X O . X X .
$$ | . . X O O X . . .
$$ | . . X O . X . . .
$$ | . 7 8 O X . . X .
$$ | . X 5 O . . . . .
$$ | . X O 2 3 O . X .
$$ | 9 O 4 X 1 . . . .
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]




Interesting thought, but maybe take a second look at how White should respond to your alternative for :b2: ? :)

Solution:
In your variation, black can ignore :w7: and just capture.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White still lost all the eyespace
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . O O . .
$$ | . . . X O . X X .
$$ | . . X O O X . . .
$$ | . . X O . X . . .
$$ | . 7 . O X . . X .
$$ | . X 5 O . . . . .
$$ | . X O 2 3 O . X .
$$ | 8 . 4 X 1 . . . .
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]


If black plays this alternate :b2: there's a much simpler variation, far simpler than any of the ones I showed (which were black's most stubborn ways to resist).

Just connect at the original spot that the peep was poking at.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Simple
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . O O . .
$$ | . . . X O . X X .
$$ | . . X O O X . . .
$$ | . . X O . X . . .
$$ | . . . O X . . X .
$$ | . X . O b . . . .
$$ | . X O 2 a O . X .
$$ | . O 3 X 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]


Where are those black stones going now? If B a, then W b.


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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2)
Post #16 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:34 am 
Honinbo

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Some more comments. :)

Courage, mes braves!

Danton wrote:
De l'audace! Encore de l'audace! Toujours de l'audace!



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The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis


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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2)
Post #17 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:07 pm 
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So Ian faces kadoban now.

Go Ian!

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Post #18 Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:32 pm 
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Knotwilg wrote:
So Ian faces kadoban now.

Go Ian!


:D
Oh I'll fight like a lion to keep that from happening! :rambo:

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2)
Post #19 Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:27 am 
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Third game. It was a good game until I misread a sequence. Then the game turns completely in white's advantage and ends in a pretty big victory for white.

Comments up until move 91.



So it's now 3-0. Probably time for a handicap.

Three choices to continue:
1) Keep playing even. Though that'll probably turn into 10-0, not so interesting for jlt.
2) Playing without komi, me being black. Might help a bit, but victories have always been larger than 6 points.
3) 2 stone handicap games. Probably most equal of all choices.

jlt prefers I decide, so I'll think about it, I also appreciate input from you guys!

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #3)
Post #20 Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:23 am 
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Go for 2

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