I think me taking black and having reverse komi would offer the most interesting games for both of us. Let's try that, we can always change it if it doesn't work out
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| jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #8) http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=16386 |
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #3) |
Knotwilg wrote: Go for 2 Option 2 or 2 stones? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #3) |
I'd try taking Black with White giving komi. |
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| Author: | jlt [ Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #3) |
@Ian: I told you that I preferred that you choose your handicap because each option has some advantages, and I don't know which advantages you value most. 1) Even games: that would be the most challenging for you. I certainly don't think I can win 10-0, but you would be at risk of losing many games, and this may not be good for motivation. 2) Reverse komi (Bill's suggestion): the games would resemble normal games, but even if you make a first big mistake like in game 3, the game won't be lost, so it will be easier for you to keep your fighting spirit. 3) 2 stones: the games may become balanced, but less challenging for you. I case you wonder, when I play against a stronger player who lets me choose my handicap, I choose H/2. For instance, if he is 6 stones stronger, I take 3 stones. In this way I lose more than I win, but I don't lose all the time. |
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #3) |
I think me taking black and having reverse komi would offer the most interesting games for both of us. Let's try that, we can always change it if it doesn't work out
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| Author: | jlt [ Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #3) |
OK, so let's do that for a few games and we'll see if we have to change. We couldn't play this week, so in the meantime I posted a few games of mine, so that you see how I got slaughtered. I won't be able to play on Sunday, but Saturday should be OK if you are free, please PM me. |
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #3) |
Game 4. Black has a reverse komi of 6.5 points. White wins by resignation. My main thoughts on the game: I felt I took a good start and made it hard for white in some areas. Also because of some good tenuki's and keeping the tempo up for black. Then something very typical for my games, it all falls apart when the opponent shows superior tactical thinking and things get cut or shapes get ripped apart. Still probably my best game of the jubango so far, only my middle game is not up to the level to win or to keep a lead. |
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| Author: | jlt [ Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #4) |
Apparently your biggest mistakes were: 1) The last one. 2)  which should have been at N6 (we noticed it this morning)3)  . Leelazero says that C5 would have been a better local play. This move separates the white C8 group from the corner group. White can also disconnect Black but C8 is not alive, so that's a fight...BTW we forgot to schedule the next match. I am free for most of next week except Saturday afternoon and Sunday afternoon, please contact me by PM. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #4) |
Black maintained his level of play for quite a while, except for the 3-3 invasion. But the passive plays,  and  , followed by the no suji, , lost too much ground. |
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #4) |
Hey Bill, thanks for your post. It's funny, in the review jlt and myself did afterwards, we stopped almost at the same point you stop your review Also, some variations you point out, we were able to found with the two of us during the review  Then again, you bring some interesting new stuff to the table. Some plays that were considered during the game, but discarded for reasons that turn out to be ungrounded. For black 83, my first choice was the cap or the hane you suggested, but I started fearing white attaching to the Q10 stone (right attachment), which would also break the ladder for the O7 cut. Anyway, thanks for the additional insight into our game. Here I was proud of my tenuki on the top side, but it turns out it was too big a gamble?  
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #4) |
Ian Butler wrote: Here I was proud of my tenuki on the top side, but it turns out it was too big a gamble? Well, your pincer was really an invasion. And the jlt raised the stakes! Ian Butler wrote: For black 83, my first choice was the cap or the hane you suggested, but I started fearing white attaching to the Q10 stone (right attachment), which would also break the ladder for the O7 cut. FDR wrote: The only think we have to fear is fear itself.  Edit: After the hane, besides threatening White on the right side, Black has threats to make territory in the center and threats against White's top side group. Also I am repairing the SGF file. I'll have the repaired file up in a few minutes. |
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #4) |
Bill Spight wrote: Ian Butler wrote: Here I was proud of my tenuki on the top side, but it turns out it was too big a gamble? Well, your pincer was really an invasion. And the jlt raised the stakes! That's true. My reasoning at the time, however, was this: I can live back here. But doing so might give white a lot of influence in exchange. so I'd better postpone it if I can, and do something else first, before giving white such amount of influence. If white would decide to block off the stone, I could still reduce the area later and have a free move elsewhere. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #4) |
Ian Butler wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Ian Butler wrote: Here I was proud of my tenuki on the top side, but it turns out it was too big a gamble? Well, your pincer was really an invasion. And the jlt raised the stakes! That's true. My reasoning at the time, however, was this: I can live back here. But doing so might give white a lot of influence in exchange. so I'd better postpone it if I can, and do something else first, before giving white such amount of influence. If white would decide to block off the stone, I could still reduce the area later and have a free move elsewhere. Well, it seems to me that you are doing two things. First, you are second guessing yourself. If you are right about the influence, then your invasion was premature. I don't think it was, but you do not have my experience. And I could be wrong. Maybe it was premature. Not just in go, but in general, IMO it is a good idea to be a bit dogged about your original plan or idea. In theory, I suppose, you should reevaluate on every turn, look with fresh eyes, and not hang on to potentially mistaken perceptions or assumptions. But that takes time and energy. Better to have some faith in yourself while admitting that you could be wrong. Besides, if you were wrong then, you could be wrong now. In chess, Znosko-Borovsky said this about second guessing yourself: "Order. Counter-order. Disorder." (I read Znosko-Borovsky when I was 13. He made a big impression. ) Edit2: Znosko-Borovsky points out that a worthy opponent is going to resist your plans and come up with plays that put the outcome in question. It is a contest, after all. Edit 4: Something I forgot to mention. Sticking by your guns encourages you to make better decisions beforehand, and, by finding out how your original plan works out, you gain information to use in making good decisions. Anyway, you saw the flaws in White's wall, which are what makes the invasion OK at this time. So maybe do a little reading and evaluate the picture of White's outside influence that emerges. You don't have to do an exhaustive search, just get the picture. Another chess writer, Krogius, points out that each move gives you a better picture of the future than your previous mental picture. Improving your vision of the future is not the same as second guessing yourself. The second thing you did was assume that your approach was sente, and you could come back to the invasion. In fact, the approach to the 4-4 is not in general sente and White could have attacked your invading stone. He could also have tried a leaning attack against your top left corner, to strengthen the attack against that stone. It was a close enough question that I did not comment on it, but thinking about it now, attacking your invasion would probably have been good psychology, inviting you to question yourself again. Edit: Correction. Looking again, I see that you did take the possibility of an attack into account. But you assumed that you could reduce if he did. But if he attacks from above, you won't be able to do that. And you might not be able to do that if he starts with a leaning attack against your corner. Edit3: You did assume that if White did attack your invasion, your gain elsewhere would be good enough compensation. That is a dubious assumption after White has raised the stakes. ---- Oh! Note to jlt. As White you followed Black around the board too much. That is part of the reason why he played so well. Black is supposed to follow White, remember?
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #4) |
Game 5. An interesting game, where black leads after the opening (at least in points and according to Leela), but white takes the lead after a good invasion (attach invasion into a shimari) and where white takes more than he's entitled to, because of slack black play. White keeps his lead until the endgame. Black tries to play his best endgame, gets big endgame moves and finally white misses a capture of 2 stones and the game swings back in black's favour. My personal take on the game: Of course I'm happy to finally win. Even though I don't think I played better than jlt, I earned this victory, if only for my patience and fighting spirit after being behind 4-0 I played bad on the bottom (overplay) and against the shimari-invasion. Other than that, I feel happy about my game. Opening was decent, middle game was fairly good, I played more aggressive than I'm used to and it felt good. Endgame was actually pretty okay. Of course you don't want to win because your opponent misses a sequence, but it happens and I still had to be close enough to catch up, so it still feels good to win. It's also funny that I woke up this morning and decided to tackle this game differently than the 4 previous matches. This morning I forced myself to think: "I will win today. I can win. I need to be bold on the board!" I tried to do that and it paid off. Even though I got back to self-doubting in the middle of the game. I recovered and tried to play my best up until the very end. EDIT: I'm also very happy that this game breaks my 2-week losing streak (well, of matches against even, slightly weaker or better opponents) |
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5) |
Also, 4-1, that's like Lee Sedol VS AlphaGo. I can dig that!
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| Author: | jlt [ Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5) |
Hi Ian, Indeed I felt that you were more aggressive than in previous games. I reviewed a bit with LeelaZero, here are a few variations I could have considered: Also,  is considered as a mistake, I should have attacked your D8 group instead.
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| Author: | Tryss [ Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5) |
Ian, Around move  , why didn't you try to capture/attack the 4 white stones? They are quite weak, and if you capture them, you're alive
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5) |
Tryss wrote: Ian, Around move , why didn't you try to capture/attack the 4 white stones? They are quite weak, and if you capture them, you're aliveThat is true, but I figured I couldn't risk my entire group on that attack. If I attack them, I'd have to start from the cutting stone, right? Then I might drive white into my eye potential for the group and if I end up not killing those stones, my group dies and the game is over. I decided to just live and maybe attack them later. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5) |
Ian Butler wrote: Tryss wrote: Ian, Around move , why didn't you try to capture/attack the 4 white stones? They are quite weak, and if you capture them, you're aliveThat is true, but I figured I couldn't risk my entire group on that attack. If I attack them, I'd have to start from the cutting stone, right? Then I might drive white into my eye potential for the group and if I end up not killing those stones, my group dies and the game is over. I decided to just live and maybe attack them later. Actually, attacking those stones could be how you could live. As Tryss points out, if you capture them you are alive. That also means that you might be able to strengthen your group by attacking the weak White group. That is something that happens quite often in go. When weak group faces weak group, the player with the move (the initiative) has the advantage.
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5) |
Hi, guys! A lot of comments and variations this time. Both players played well. I made a number of comments based upon reverse komi. Leela might not agree. Double keima seemed to be a recurrent theme. There is a weakness for Black in the bottom right corner which you both need to learn about. I was a dan player before I did. White followed Black around again. White's job is to make life difficult for Black, unless Black is giving 7.5 komi. With so many comments, I am very likely to have goofed at least once.
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| Author: | ez4u [ Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5) |
I was analyzing with the LZ 205 net and I think the very early situation is quite interesting. When White approaches the bottom right with  below, Black answers with the knight's move at  . This is the new style. Next LZ thinks White should enclose the bottom left, leaving the single stone on the right as a forcing play. Instead White extends with the 2-space jump to  . LZ does not consider this a bad move but slightly worse than the enclosure.Now Black attaches at  and White answers with  . This seems natural, everyone who learned go more than three years ago probably feels that Black has made White over-concentrated and that this is a good exchange. LZ disagrees. This exchange strengthens White while creating a weakness at P3 for Black. Immediately, LZ thinks Black needs to protect the bottom left instead of  , White should play P3 instead of  , and Black should again protect instead of playing elsewhere with  . This weakness dominated the analysis of the next thirty moves or so in the game, LZ continually wanting to go back and either protect (as Black) or attach at P3 (as White).I went to have lunch with the board position set up following above. When I returned, LZ had been pondering for an hour before it timed out, with the result shown here. Note that it has dedicated 251K visits to P3. The next most studied play is the shoulder hit in the upper right but with a mere 1.1K visits.So what was it pondering on? Here is its 39-move deep best play based on 251K visits.  |
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