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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5)
Post #41 Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:35 pm 
Honinbo

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ez4u wrote:
I was analyzing with the LZ 205 net and I think the very early situation is quite interesting.
When White approaches the bottom right with :w1: below, Black answers with the knight's move at :b2:. This is the new style. Next LZ thinks White should enclose the bottom left, leaving the single stone on the right as a forcing play. Instead White extends with the 2-space jump to :w3:. LZ does not consider this a bad move but slightly worse than the enclosure.

Now Black attaches at :b4: and White answers with :w5:. This seems natural, everyone who learned go more than three years ago probably feels that Black has made White over-concentrated and that this is a good exchange. LZ disagrees. This exchange strengthens White while creating a weakness at P3 for Black. Immediately, LZ thinks Black needs to protect the bottom left instead of :b6:, White should play P3 instead of :w7:, and Black should again protect instead of playing elsewhere with :b8:. This weakness dominated the analysis of the next thirty moves or so in the game, LZ continually wanting to go back and either protect (as Black) or attach at P3 (as White)


As I mentioned, I learned about the weakness of Black in the bottom right when I was a dan player. As I recall, from reading Sakata. And I remember that Segoe, reflecting the opinions of earlier generations, was not too worried about White's overconcentration. So I went and checked the Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary, and here is what they say is somewhat favorable for Black in the bottom right corner, because White is a bit overconcentrated.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 6 . 2 . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . a X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


They also point out that :b6: protects against White "a".

In this case LZ is right, but humans got there first. :D

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5)
Post #42 Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:47 am 
Judan

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Another thing I have learnt from LZ is in the related shape in which black has played the solid kosumi instead of knight move (in which case white making 2-space extension is a relatively more valuable move as black is threatening a better attack as 3-3 attach less good now, LZ doesn't like traditional 3-space low), then if black kicks (in early opening) extend shouldn't be your default move (because you don't have p3 aim as before) but the light and flexible 2 space extension, or more fancy you can do some kikashi against the top right corner like a if it's small low or the new attachments if big low. This kind of light dodge isn't an unknown idea before bots (can also happen with 4-4) and it's heavily dependent on timing, but I sense LZ is less concerned with allowing a further black move after tenuki kick than humans have tended. Of course there is a selection bias in looking for similar pro games in that black won't kick if he thinks it would be a bad move because white wouldn't extend but play the speedy extension.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . 2 , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5)
Post #43 Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:47 pm 
Honinbo

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There is an interesting end of game protective play question that arose. It would not make any difference to winning or losing, but it is something to be aware of. Even fairly good SDKs miss such plays from time to time.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play (move 207)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X W X . . . . . . . X . X X X |
$$ | W X W W W W X . . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | W W . c . W W X X . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . a W X W X O O X X X . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . b W W X X O O O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X W X O X O . . O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O X O O O X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X X O , O X X O X , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O X O O O . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O O O X X O X X X X O O . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X X . X X O O O . . O O |
$$ | . O X . X O O . X . X X X O . . . O X |
$$ | . . O X X X O O O X X . O O . O O X X |
$$ | . . O O X X O . X , X . O X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X . X X O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The three marked Black strings have 3 dame each and share a total of 7 dame. As Wilcox warns us, they may be in danger. Black considered a play at "a", "b", or "c", did not find that any of them worked, and passed. Afterwards, Leela pointed out the cut.

There is a proverb that would have helped Black and saved him some time. It applied to life and death, of which this is an example, When you are considering how to kill, it says, "First, the hane, then the cut, then the oki." You might consider "c" a hane, but the proverb refers to hane from the outside. "a", "b", and "c" are not oki, but the primacy of the cut still applies. If Black had started with the cut, he might well have discovered that it works.

What is so good about the cut in this position (and in general)? It reduces White's dame. OC, so do the other plays, but the cut "keeps on giving". ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black wins the semeai
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X W X . . . . . . . X . X X X |
$$ | W X W W W W X . . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | W W 1 4 . W W X X . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | 5 3 2 W X W X O O X X X . . . X O O . |
$$ | . a 7 W W X X O O O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X W X O X O . . O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O X O O O X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X X O , O X X O X , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O X O O O . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O O O X X O X X X X O O . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X X . X X O O O . . O O |
$$ | . O X . X O O . X . X X X O . . . O X |
$$ | . . O X X X O O O X X . O O . O O X X |
$$ | . . O O X X O . X , X . O X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X . X X O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w6: @ 1

Leela's main line shows White's most stubborn resistance. Here is White's combined dame count, move by move.

:b1: 6 dame
:w2: 5 dame
:b3: 4 dame
:w4: 4 dame
:b5: 3 dame
:w6: 2 dame
:b7: 1 dame

:b1: makes :b3: and :b5: atari. Note that :w2: and :w6: each reduce the White dame count. This is the kind of thing that makes such cuts work. :) Note also that White should play at "a" instead of :w6:, and give up the three stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X W X . . . . . . . X . X X X |
$$ | W X W W W W X . . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | W W 1 2 7 W W X X . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . 4 3 W X W X O O X X X . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . 5 W W X X O O O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . 6 X W X O X O . . O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O X O O O X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X X O , O X X O X , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O X O O O . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O O O X X O X X X X O O . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X X . X X O O O . . O O |
$$ | . O X . X O O . X . X X X O . . . O X |
$$ | . . O X X X O O O X X . O O . O O X X |
$$ | . . O O X X O . X , X . O X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X . X X O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w2: and :w4: save the three stones, but then :b5: is atari on the other :wc: stones. OC, :w4: at 5 loses only the three stones, but playing :w2: in the previous diagram is the better way to do that.

Edit: For completeness.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Snapback
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X W X . . . . . . . X . X X X |
$$ | W X W W W W X . . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | W W 1 3 . W W X X . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . 2 a W X W X O O X X X . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . b W W X X O O O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X W X O X O . . O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O X O O O X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X X O , O X X O X , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O X O O O . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O O O X X O X X X X O O . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X X . X X O O O . . O O |
$$ | . O X . X O O . X . X X X O . . . O X |
$$ | . . O X X X O O O X X . O O . O O X X |
$$ | . . O O X X O . X , X . O X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X . X X O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If :b3: is at "a", :w4: at "b" captures the two Black stones.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis


Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by 3 people: dfan, ez4u, jlt
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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5)
Post #44 Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:22 pm 
Judan

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This proverb also comes in handy:
Quote:
Cut first, think later

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5)
Post #45 Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:47 pm 
Oza
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Quote:
... Even fairly good SDKs Dans miss such plays from time to time...

Let's be honest. ;-)

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21


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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5)
Post #46 Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:51 pm 
Honinbo

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Here's another wrinkle. :cool:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White gives up three stones
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X . . . . . . . X . X X X |
$$ | O X O O O O X . . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | W O 1 4 . O O X X . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | 5 3 2 O X O X O O X X X . . . X O O . |
$$ | . 6 . O O X X O O O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X O . . O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O X O O O X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X X O , O X X O X , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O X O O O . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O O O X X O X X X X O O . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X X . X X O O O . . O O |
$$ | . O X . X O O . X . X X X O . . . O X |
$$ | . . O X X X O O O X X . O O . O O X X |
$$ | . . O O X X O . X , X . O X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X . X X O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b7: @ 1, :w8: takes back, :b9: @ :wc:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Oops!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X . . . . . . . X . X X X |
$$ | 4 X O O O O X . . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | X O 1 O . O O X X . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | X X O O X O X O O X X X . . . X O O . |
$$ | 3 O . O O X X O O O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | 6 2 B O X O X O . . O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . 5 O X X . X O X O O O X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X X O , O X X O X , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O X O O O . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O O O X X O X X X X O O . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X X . X X O O O . . O O |
$$ | . O X . X O O . X . X X X O . . . O X |
$$ | . . O X X X O O O X X . O O . O O X X |
$$ | . . O O X X O . X , X . O X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X . X X O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If :w10: fills the ko, :b11: takes it all. :shock: :oops:

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

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 Post subject: Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #5)
Post #47 Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:23 am 
Lives in gote

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We're at the halfway point of the Jubango now. The score is 4-1.

The next game has been postponed for a few weeks, I asked for this break. The reason is that I am unable to focus on Go at the moment, with some personal things going on. I want to complete the Jubango with the right concentration, and I couldn't focus on the game right now.

So expect the next match within a few weeks!

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