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 Post subject: Use of Attacking Style as White?
Post #1 Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:09 pm 
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So, I’m sure we’re all familiar to some degree with openings as black such as the Chinese, Kobayshi, and Sanrensei. These types of openings are typically aimed at coaxing their opponent into approaching them, and consequently forced to fight against several stones on enemy grounds. While this is a common attacking style method, I find that as white I must choose between territorial style of play or an influential one—— my preference leaning toward the former rather than the ladder in these cases. Does anyone have any methods they like to use as white that gets similar results to these openings?

Thanks! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Use of Attacking Style as White?
Post #2 Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:07 pm 
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In the beginning of the game, black has the advantage of playing first, so he can aim at creating a large scale game to overcome white's territorial advantage of komi.

White should not try to compete by trying to make an even larger scale game. It shouldn't work, because black has the advantage of playing first. What white should be doing is prevent black from making a large scale game. My teacher In-Seong Hwnag 8d calls this "splitting the board". White tries to steer the game into a state where neither players has very big territories and both players have many groups with small territories. If white succeeds in this, his komi advantage can become decisive.

But if your black opponent plays a slow and steady game (which he shouldn't), you can go ahead and try to create a large scale game with white. It might work.


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 Post subject: Re: Use of Attacking Style as White?
Post #3 Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:58 pm 
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One strategy I quite like, though I don't often pull it off, is what I call the "sneaky white tenuki moyo". This happens when white plays a speedy opening and starts off by tackling black's development, disrupting it by settling some groups inside it, reducing or whatnot. In the process white aims to get sente a few times, and despite black following up from the tenuki white still gets an ok result and builds up around one corner which has little play. This can then end up being the largest territory of the game. I'd noticed Artem Kachanovsky would sometimes end up doing this. And here's an example from Leela Zero running on my phone (timed out at 134 by I show a few possible variations in which top left becomes biggest territory of the game); f17, c11, e10 are the tenukis building it, f8 and h11 as part of the attack help too. Earlier l7 not being a tenuki but reinforcing group was also instructive prophylaxis.



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 Post subject: Re: Use of Attacking Style as White?
Post #4 Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:52 pm 
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Thanks for the insight guys! I love the responses I’m seeing. I’ll be reviewing them for a while for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Use of Attacking Style as White?
Post #5 Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:40 am 
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try playing random opening(tengen, side points, 6-3 points etc.) then play like you are playing a handicap game

or taking like 4 7-3, 8-3 points etc. then ignoring opponents move, tenuki to the max, then try to start fights that are favorable, utilize maximum aji on the groups that you left behind and ignored, revive them at the right time

anyway, even though such opening is unfavorable but it gets your brain thinking
because if you play similar opening again and again, you'll eventually get used to them, and play from memory instead of using your brain to think and reading out moves

in the long run, such opening maybe can be the key to success, lol
if you can beat opponents with such opening that is similar to handicap game style, imagine you giving handicap stones to players of similar strength?

also occasionally, some players will be intimitated by such random opening, they might play slower/safer moves like how weaker players play in handicap stones, it's like they know they should make the best move but they just want a "safer" win
in the end, by playing safer/slower moves, it will eventually cost them the game like many weaker players will do

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 Post subject: Re: Use of Attacking Style as White?
Post #6 Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:53 am 
Honinbo

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The top bots generally do not like early attacks, and they generally put White ahead because of the 7½ pt. komi. So White can pretty well play calmly at first. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Use of Attacking Style as White?
Post #7 Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:53 am 
Gosei

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Dangomango, this style of subobtimal moves :scratch:. Against stonger players it is impolite, against weaker players it is insulting, against me after you lost three times this way you are blocked ;-).

How about if instead of trying to train your brain by playing wasted moves, you try to improve by finding the optimal play in any given situation. The only motivation for such openings I can see is, if you are afraid that your opponent has a better grip on the opening. Tough luck, if that is the case, he will beat you anyways. :twisted:

I really think time is better spent on sensible openings.

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 Post subject: Re: Use of Attacking Style as White?
Post #8 Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:39 pm 
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Gomoto wrote:
Dangomango, this style of subobtimal moves :scratch:. Against stonger players it is impolite, against weaker players it is insulting, against me after you lost three times this way you are blocked ;-).

How about if instead of trying to train your brain by playing wasted moves, you try to improve by finding the optimal play in any given situation. The only motivation for such openings I can see is, if you are afraid that your opponent has a better grip on the opening. Tough luck, if that is the case, he will beat you anyways. :twisted:

I really think time is better spent on sensible openings.


Bah. If a top pro could play it in ages gone by, then I can play it now. "Sensible" openings are pretty much always just going with the flow of the times. Sure, AI can tell you that it's proper to do this or that, but if players like Go Seigen in their greatest days of glory couldn't solidly refute a move or style, then it's good enough for humans (with the noticeable assumption that it's executed properly). Attempting to find 100% "optimal play" in the opening is indubitably going to force you to be too narrow-minded to develop freely.
To reach the highest peak you have to search widely much more than you have to climb high.


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 Post subject: Re: Use of Attacking Style as White?
Post #9 Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:47 pm 
Gosei

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Perhaps I just dont like to play against it :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Use of Attacking Style as White?
Post #10 Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:48 pm 
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Gomoto wrote:
Dangomango, this style of subobtimal moves :scratch:. Against stonger players it is impolite, against weaker players it is insulting


against stronger players, you won't be playing as white in the first place
as for against weaker player, you can just say random opening is just to give you handicap stones

random opening isn't wasted moves, they will kick in and be utilized, it all depends on you
it's like playing tengen for the first move, sure it looks useless, but it's not, when you have fights/running groups, you'll have an easier time vs if you don't have tengen point, it all depends on how you utilize it later

even though Go is already developed so much, but can you really say tengen is really worse than corner point?
maybe you say it's bad because go theory says it's bad, or pro says its bad, or AI says its bad...
but maybe in the future, they relook into the opening again and say it's not that bad
it's like invading 3-3 early on, it was considered bad, now it's considered standard...
standards change everyday, although standards are set by the best(alphadog)
but if you beat it, you can set the standards yourself

in chinese there's a proverb "学我者生 似我者死"
"those who learn from me live, those who copy{imitate} me die"

go is a game of brain power, creativity, and imagination
if you just acknowledge that openings are all set in stones and must be played in a certain way, then your thoughts and mind will be limited, eventually you'll take all the "good moves" for granted, you'll take the pros word and just imitate their play without understanding their thought process, just go into no brainer mode
a good move today might be bad tomorrow


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 Post subject: Re: Use of Attacking Style as White?
Post #11 Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:05 pm 
Gosei

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Thanks for your detailed argument.

Rationally, I agree.

Emotionally, I will have to learn to embrace the funny openings of my opponents and accept I will win go even more. ;-)

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