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 Post subject: 3-3 invasion question
Post #1 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:08 am 
Lives with ko

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Opponent jumped into the 3-3 and this is the variation that occurred. I'm white. His extension at 3 and hane at 5, cut at 7 is something I haven't seen before. White has two things to attack, so I want to say this is good for white. Opinions and or rebuttals?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 8 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #2 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:00 am 
Judan

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This is a modern AI joseki variation, thought it more commonly appear in a different order of 2 extension in response to c4 push, then black knight move at 1, and later white attach at c6 and black extend out at 3 (black can also play at 8 instead). It's the kind of result that in the past a player trained on the thinking of 1970s Japanese go books would laugh at black's result for getting split in two, but the new thinking is that this can be ok for black (depending on the timing) as he can get a fast paced opening and although white is splitting black white is not making any eyes so the wall is attackable in future. As you say black would like to spend a move on both sides with e2 and c10/11 and can only do one, but if black plays e2 (as reverse sente) and white plays around c10 the 2 stones still have aji for future fun and black in sente make an alive group.

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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #3 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:33 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Still seems pretty good for white to me. Maybe I have 1970s thinking...

I guess black has sente, and can threaten moves around a, b, and c. Black just seems so low on the bottom... Though, with white's 3-3 here, maybe the group he has on the side isn't as valuable? e.g., I'd prefer this as white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:10 am 
Dies in gote

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Kirby wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:scratch:


Who do you prefer here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Another possibility.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 9 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 4 . X O 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Continued:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O 2 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 X O X 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | O . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O 2 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 X O X 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | O . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #5 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:27 am 
Gosei

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Uberdude wrote:
It's the kind of result that in the past a player trained on the thinking of 1970s Japanese go books would laugh at black's result for getting split in two

Indeed, I was trained on 1970s Japanese go books and this was my reaction. It looked so good for White to me that I had to look twice to make sure the diagram was correct.

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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #6 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:05 pm 
Lives in gote

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Seems like a good thing to try playing the Black side as a psychological attack. If your opponent hasn't seen this new AI joseki they might underestimate you! :ugeek: Personally I've seen many of the new 3-3 invasions, but I haven't really studied them and I've never seen this one. Last week at the US Open I played several of the new josekis, but both my opponent and I blindly copied the AI moves. Any slight deviation and I would have been totally lost what to do. :razz:

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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #7 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:20 pm 
Judan

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Here's a tewari. Black starts in the corner with 3-3 (in real game it was white), we can quibble about fractions of a percent but this is a fine move. Shoulder hit 2 is maybe bad but it's good enough for 9ps and nothing like as stupid looking as the final result so let's keep going. 3-4-5 normal. 6 turn is ok, 7 tenuki might be normal to continue locally at a, but tenuki to a huge opening move like empty corner is surely good. 8 is way too close, particularly as black didn't play a

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Tewari part 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . a . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now for the dumb exchanges from both. White push and cut with 10-13 helps black a lot, making more alive and e2 stronger. Black then does his dumbest exchange of the lot with 15-16, but then when he continues being stupid with 17 white is more stupid with 18 instead of block a or something more efficient like c10. So starting for a sensible position, black gets a tenuki, white plays a too close extension, white does some bad exchanges, black does one worse exchange and then white another bad one.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Tewari part 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #8 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:38 pm 
Lives with ko

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This was how it played out. Black was able to play it like Uber said and use the aji at "a" to make white uncomfortable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 5 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O . . 3 . 4 . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . 2 . . X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This result made me feel uncomfortable. I was able to connect up by using F3 but he kind of let me cut through when he didn't have to. I think white 2 was questionable.

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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #9 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:08 pm 
Lives with ko

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yoyoma wrote:
Seems like a good thing to try playing the Black side as a psychological attack. If your opponent hasn't seen this new AI joseki they might underestimate you! :ugeek: Personally I've seen many of the new 3-3 invasions, but I haven't really studied them and I've never seen this one. Last week at the US Open I played several of the new josekis, but both my opponent and I blindly copied the AI moves. Any slight deviation and I would have been totally lost what to do. :razz:


I agree. I haven't studied them, so much as just followed what Dans and what I have seen dwyrin do. When someone plays a weird variation, I just try to read my way through it.

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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #10 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:58 pm 
Dies with sente
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yoyoma wrote:
Seems like a good thing to try playing the Black side as a psychological attack. If your opponent hasn't seen this new AI joseki they might underestimate you! :ugeek: Personally I've seen many of the new 3-3 invasions, but I haven't really studied them and I've never seen this one. Last week at the US Open I played several of the new josekis, but both my opponent and I blindly copied the AI moves. Any slight deviation and I would have been totally lost what to do. :razz:


Personally whenever I look at something that is joseki (by some old or new measure) and one side looks stupid to me, I play [the stupid side] at every opportunity for a while until I learn to appreciate the position.

(this is bad for winning games, and questionable for learning, but it's interesting.)

Edit:clarity[]


Last edited by MikeKyle on Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #11 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:59 pm 
Judan

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Yes, invasion of 2 wasn't good (neither was 2 in first diagram as you just die and let black fix b3 for free) as invades an area black wasn't going to consolidate any time soon and doesn't have any chance to make a black weak group. If you are going to invade the lower side at least n4 has some attacking potential or n3 is safe choice with 2nd line connect option. But the bigger problem is your group on the left isn't strong, so it's worth spending a move to fix it. I'm guessing before this you cut at e14, that helps black more than white's little extra territory next to a strong corner group, defending at c10 then would also be good. In fact playing there when black played f4 could well be worth a move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #12 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:50 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is not a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #13 Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:08 am 
Lives with ko

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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is not a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like this variation. Black can't cut C5 due to a liberty shortage right? So he takes, and then white protects the cut at "a", or plays the outside at 2.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is not a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O a O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #14 Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:24 am 
Lives with ko

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Josekipedia says 2 instead of "a". And then the joseki is finished. My decendt at c1 seems to be aji keshi

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Post #15 Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:01 pm 
Dies in gote

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Hades12 wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is not a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like this variation. Black can't cut C5 due to a liberty shortage right? So he takes, and then white protects the cut at "a", or plays the outside at 2.

Black can cut and I'd be inclined to say that its necessary (but haven't checked with a bot.
The c1 descend isnt just aji keshi but also bad endgame

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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #16 Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:18 pm 
Judan

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Hades12 wrote:
I like this variation. Black can't cut C5 due to a liberty shortage right?

Are you worried about white squeezing? White can't keep it together when black cuts at 7 (and can't win ko):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Bad for white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 X O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 X 5 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White is just happy to capture and black made white stronger (weak wall becomes thick with ponnuki) is too costly for being able to connect and block at b2. Black could try a=d first as a trying to make c6 heavy and maybe get sente plan but it's not clear they are good exchanges

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Bad for black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X b d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Hades12 wrote:
So he takes, and then white protects the cut at "a", or plays the outside at 2.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is not a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O a O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


2 isn't good here, black cuts, and pushes in sente to stop white turn in sente for a good result. Black got a chunky territory in sente in white's corner and the wall has weaknesses at a/b to exploit in the future

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So white should connect, and it's like the direct connection except black can't choose to e2 extend, but only has the choice to play from the 2 stones if he wants to continue locally, e.g. extend at 3, if white plays checking extension black defends and is putting some pressure on the white wall whilst settling as f3 peep is incoming.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


and if white presses black just makes a 2-space extension and might save the 2 stones later which concerns base of both.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Hades12
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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #17 Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:51 pm 
Judan

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Also c1 descent isn't really aji keshi, as aji keshi refers to an exchange which is one of severable plausible choices that after a possible future sequence of play might be good or might be bad and because you can't predict the future is better left unplayed; but the c1 b2 exchange is just always bad. It's mochikomi, loss without compensation as there's no realistic way of it being a good exchange. About the only positive thing I can find about it is the distant possibility that if black plays f4 and white peeps at g2 and black ignores then if white pushes and cuts then f2 becomes a sente not gote cut.

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 Post subject: Re: 3-3 invasion question
Post #18 Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:16 pm 
Lives with ko

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Uberdude wrote:
Also c1 descent isn't really aji keshi, as aji keshi refers to an exchange which is one of severable plausible choices that after a possible future sequence of play might be good or might be bad and because you can't predict the future is better left unplayed; but the c1 b2 exchange is just always bad. It's mochikomi, loss without compensation as there's no realistic way of it being a good exchange. About the only positive thing I can find about it is the distant possibility that if black plays f4 and white peeps at g2 and black ignores then if white pushes and cuts then f2 becomes a sente not gote cut.


Ran the joseki through OGS AI (which I think is Leela) and it says that the descent there loses 19 percent win rate. After black connects at B3 he has a win percentage of 75.4%. AI really does not like the descent. IF I play C8 outright it says it is okay still, only a 3.9 percent change. I wonder why the descent loses almost 20 percent chance of winning for white.

And the AI says instead of continuing after Black plays move B7 to tenuki and play the 3-3 point in the LR.

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