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 Post subject: Re: Thermography
Post #341 Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:28 am 
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Here is an example where all possibilties have to be carefully analysed

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X |
$$ | O . O X . X . X X |
$$ | . O O X . X O X . |
$$ | O O O O X X . X . |
$$ | O O X X X O O O O |
$$ | O X . X X O . O . |
$$ -----------------[/go]


It seems white can get a draw in two ways:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . 3 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O O X . . . |
$$ | O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X |
$$ | O . O X . X . X X |
$$ | . O O X . X O X . |
$$ | O O O O X X 5 X 6 |
$$ | O O X X X O O O O |
$$ | O X 7 X X O . O . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

and white wins the ko
or
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . 5 7 4 8 . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O O X . . . |
$$ | O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X |
$$ | O . O X . X . X X |
$$ | . O O X . X O X . |
$$ | O O O O X X 1 X 6 |
$$ | O O X X X O O O O |
$$ | O X 9 X X O . O . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

and again white wins the ko (one ko threat for black and one ko threat white)

but the second sequence is not correct. Black must play
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X |
$$ | O . O X . X . X X |
$$ | . O O X . X O X . |
$$ | O O O O X X 1 X . |
$$ | O O X X X O O O O |
$$ | O X . X X O . O . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

and now black wins by one point by
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . 5 4 B 6 . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O O X . . . |
$$ | O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X |
$$ | O . O X . X . X X |
$$ | . O O X . X O X . |
$$ | O O O O X X W X 7 |
$$ | O O X X X O O O O |
$$ | O X 8 X X O . O . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

or
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . 3 5 B 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X |
$$ | O . O X . X . X X |
$$ | . O O X . X O X . |
$$ | O O O O X X W X 4 |
$$ | O O X X X O O O O |
$$ | O X 7 X X O . O . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

and now black wins the the ko because black has two ko threats against only one for white.

Not so easy is it?

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 Post subject: Re: Thermography
Post #342 Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:11 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
As you have pointed out, Black has two net ko threats.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White reverse sente
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . 1 2 . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O O X . . . |
$$ | O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . X X X X |
$$ | O O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . X X |
$$ | O O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]


Score = +3


Because in the position proposed the key point is the number of ko threats I think you obviously answered here a little too quickly. The move :b2: in the above diagram is not correct. You have to play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White reverse sente
$$ -----------------
$$ | . 5 4 7 1 6 . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O O X . . . |
$$ | O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . X X X X |
$$ | O O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . X X |
$$ | O O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White reverse sente
$$ -----------------
$$ | . 5 3 . 1 6 . . . |
$$ | 7 4 2 O O X . . . |
$$ | O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . X X X X |
$$ | O O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . X X |
$$ | O O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]


and in any case black gets a good ko threat


OC the best sequence for white is
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White reverse sente
$$ -----------------
$$ | . 5 4 7 1 6 . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O O X . . . |
$$ | O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . X X X X |
$$ | O O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . X X |
$$ | O O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

because the black threat is smaller

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 Post subject: Re: Thermography
Post #343 Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:00 am 
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Let me propose the following small yose problem:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | O X O O O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

As we all know you usely cannot get the best yose move without knowing the exact environment.
Here I assume area counting, I assume black is komaster and I assume temperature equal to zero.

Note : I hope the white sequence is unique against the best black defense!

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 Post subject: Re: Thermography
Post #344 Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:44 pm 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Let me propose the following small yose problem:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | O X O O O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

As we all know you usely cannot get the best yose move without knowing the exact environment.
Here I assume area counting, I assume black is komaster and I assume temperature equal to zero.

Note : I hope the white sequence is unique against the best black defense!


A couple of thoughts. No guarantees. ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 1
$$ -----------------
$$ | . 7 . 2 1 0 O . . |
$$ | 6 4 3 . X O O . . |
$$ | 5 X X X X O . . . |
$$ | W X O O O O . . . |
$$ | 8 O O . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

:w9: takes back at :wc:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Variation 1, continued
$$ -----------------
$$ | . O 1 X 2 X O . . |
$$ | X X O . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | O X O O O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

Seki. Black gets the last play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 2
$$ -----------------
$$ | . 5 9 1 2 . O . . |
$$ | 4 . 8 . X O O . . |
$$ | 3 X X X X O . . . |
$$ | W X O O O O . . . |
$$ | 6 O O . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

:w7: takes back at :wc:

Seki. White gets the last play.

Better for White.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermography
Post #345 Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:23 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | d d b a b d O . . |
$$ | d c b d X O O . . |
$$ | b X X X X O . . . |
$$ | O X O O O O . . . |
$$ | d O O . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]


Very good Bill.

If I am not wrong the result (area counting) for each move are the following:
move at "a" point : score -7
move at "b" points : score -5
move at "c" points : score -3
move at "d" points : score -1
tenuki : score +1

For me, the correct move at "a" looked quite difficult to find.

Let me mentionned another tricky variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | . 7 1 2 . . O . . |
$$ | 6 4 3 . X O O . . |
$$ | 5 X X X X O . . . |
$$ | O X O O O O . . . |
$$ | 8 O O . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9 White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | . O O X . 2 O . . |
$$ | X X O . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O O O . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

Because black is komaster :b10: is possible and white cannot reach the score -7 with this variation.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermography
Post #346 Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:14 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | d d b a b d O . . |
$$ | d c b d X O O . . |
$$ | b X X X X O . . . |
$$ | O X O O O O . . . |
$$ | d O O . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]


Very good Bill.

If I am not wrong the result (area counting) for each move are the following:
move at "a" point : score -7
move at "b" points : score -5
move at "c" points : score -3
move at "d" points : score -1
tenuki : score +1


BTW, to adjust area score results for comparison with territory scoring, I add to them the number of White stones minus the number of Black stones in the original position. In this position there are 13 White stones and 6 Black stones, so we add 7.

The adjusted scores are then 0 for move a, 2 for move b, etc.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermography
Post #347 Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:20 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:

BTW, to adjust area score results for comparison with territory scoring, I add to them the number of White stones minus the number of Black stones in the original position. In this position there are 13 White stones and 6 Black stones, so we add 7.

The adjusted scores are then 0 for move a, 2 for move b, etc.


Oops I do not understand Bill. You are very aware that lots of sequences lead to a seki (your own two proposals are good example). In such case only the number of stones captured during the sequence are relevant and that does not look to fit your formula, does it?

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 Post subject: Re: Thermography
Post #348 Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:59 pm 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:

BTW, to adjust area score results for comparison with territory scoring, I add to them the number of White stones minus the number of Black stones in the original position. In this position there are 13 White stones and 6 Black stones, so we add 7.

The adjusted scores are then 0 for move a, 2 for move b, etc.


Oops I do not understand Bill. You are very aware that lots of sequences lead to a seki (your own two proposals are good example). In such case only the number of stones captured during the sequence are relevant and that does not look to fit your formula, does it?


It's not a conversion, it is for making comparisons. Of the two sequences I gave, the one starting with D-09 gets a territory result of +1, not 0, while one starting with E-09 gets a territory score of +2, which agrees with the adjusted score. Typically the adjusted score will be within 1 point of the territory score, depending on the specific rules.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermography
Post #349 Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:27 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:

BTW, to adjust area score results for comparison with territory scoring, I add to them the number of White stones minus the number of Black stones in the original position. In this position there are 13 White stones and 6 Black stones, so we add 7.

The adjusted scores are then 0 for move a, 2 for move b, etc.


Oops I do not understand Bill. You are very aware that lots of sequences lead to a seki (your own two proposals are good example). In such case only the number of stones captured during the sequence are relevant and that does not look to fit your formula, does it?


It's not a conversion, it is for making comparisons. Of the two sequences I gave, the one starting with D-09 gets a territory result of +1, not 0, while one starting with E-09 gets a territory score of +2, which agrees with the adjusted score. Typically the adjusted score will be within 1 point of the territory score, depending on the specific rules.


Yes Bill. Precisely because the adjusted score will be within 1 point, unfortunatly, comparing two sequences in area or territory scoring may give different results:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . b a . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | O X O O O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]


The sequences beginning with "a" or "b" in the above diagram leads to the same score (+1) in territory scoring. In area scoring the sequence beginning with "a" is two points better than the sequence beginning with "b". That the reason I chose area counting for this problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Thermography
Post #350 Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:27 pm 
Honinbo

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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . b a . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | O X O O O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]


The sequences beginning with "a" or "b" in the above diagram leads to the same score (+1) in territory scoring. In area scoring the sequence beginning with "a" is two points better than the sequence beginning with "b". That the reason I chose area counting for this problem.


Sure. No problem.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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