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 Post subject: Re: Shikatsu Myoki Tsumego Series
Post #21 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:57 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to move
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . 6 1 8 O O X . 2 . |
$$ . . 5 X X O . O . X O O |
$$ . . . 7 3 X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . 4 X X X X 9 X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]


This post by Shaddy was liked by 2 people: jlt, Kirby
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 Post subject: Re: Shikatsu Myoki Tsumego Series
Post #22 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:37 pm 
Dies in gote
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Universal go server handle: Farodin
Shaddy wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to move
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . 6 1 8 O O X . 2 . |
$$ . . 5 X X O . O . X O O |
$$ . . . 7 3 X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . 4 X X X X 9 X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]


Thank you, I didn't see the nose attach at 5. So now I can agree that it is alive in double ko :)

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 Post subject: Re: Shikatsu Myoki Tsumego Series
Post #23 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:06 am 
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Shaddy wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to move
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . 6 1 8 O O X . 2 . |
$$ . . 5 X X O . O . X O O |
$$ . . . 7 3 X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . 4 X X X X 9 X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]


Fine Shaddy, as Farodin, I didn't see the nose attach at 5.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . 4 X O O X . . . |
$$ . . . 3 X 2 X O . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O O O O 1 O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X O X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]


That prove that my move :b12: was not correct, allowing you to take at :w13: in good conditions.
Far better seems:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ . . . . X 2 X O . X O O |
$$ . . . . 3 X O O O O 1 O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X O X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . 4 X O W X . 5 . |
$$ . . . . X O . O . B O O |
$$ . . . . 3 X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X . X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]

Now I do not think you will play the sequence :w13: :b14: which looks quite bad due to the awful previous exchange of the two marked stones.
If the idea is to escape on the left then I think white should play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . 4 3 . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . X 5 X 1 . . O O |
$$ . . . . . X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X . X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]

with a good result for white

Due to this variant I think black :b4: may be a mistake and I prefer simply taking the corner with ko by:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . 3 . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . X . X 1 . 4 O O |
$$ . . . . . X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X . X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]


In any case thank you for your help Shaddy, I appreciate.

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 Post subject: Re: Shikatsu Myoki Tsumego Series
Post #24 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:32 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ . . . a X 2 X O . X O O |
$$ . . . b 3 X O O O O 1 O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X O X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]

It is irrelevant, whether :b12: is at a or at b alternatively.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . O . X O O |
$$ . . . . X X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X 4 X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . O . X O O |
$$ . . . . X X O O O O . O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X O X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]

:b14: ko threat
:w15: elsewhere

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . O . X O O |
$$ . . . . X X O O O O 7 O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X O X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm16
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . X O O X . 2 . |
$$ . . . . X O 3 O . X O O |
$$ . . . . X X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X 4 X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]

White lives in double-ko.

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Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

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 Post subject: Re: Shikatsu Myoki Tsumego Series
Post #25 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:49 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ . . . a X 2 X O . X O O |
$$ . . . b 3 X O O O O 1 O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X O X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]

It is irrelevant, whether :b12: is at a or at b alternatively.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . O . X O O |
$$ . . . . X X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X 4 X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . O . X O O |
$$ . . . . X X O O O O . O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X O X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]

:b14: ko threat
:w15: elsewhere

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . O . X O O |
$$ . . . . X X O O O O 7 O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X O X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm16
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . X O O X . 2 . |
$$ . . . . X O 3 O . X O O |
$$ . . . . X X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X 4 X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]

White lives in double-ko.


My proposal was to play
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm16
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . 3 X O O X . 2 . |
$$ . . . . X O . O . X O O |
$$ . . . . X X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X . X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]

to continue fighting the ko on the right till a black connection.

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 Post subject: Re: Shikatsu Myoki Tsumego Series
Post #26 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:31 am 
Honinbo

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Tygem: 커비라고해
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Shaddy wrote:

Due to this variant I think black :b4: may be a mistake and I prefer simply taking the corner with ko by:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . 3 . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . X . X 1 . 4 O O |
$$ . . . . . X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X . X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]


In any case thank you for your help Shaddy, I appreciate.


Wow, this position is more interesting than I thought. If black plays like that, can white just do this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . 3 . 2 b a . |
$$ . . . . X 5 C 1 7 4 O O |
$$ . . . . 6 X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X c X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]


Then if black plays at 'a', there's another double ko at 'b' and 'c'.

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 Post subject: Re: Shikatsu Myoki Tsumego Series
Post #27 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:24 am 
Oza

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Fancy that! A discussion on L19. Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket this week....

Just a small corrective: in the original this is problem 65, not 76, it is not marked as a 'to live' (or ko) problem, nowhere is it described as 'unconditional' life (it says "lives with double ko"), and the categories given in SL do not exist.

Furthermore, the title and the introductory text, as well as conventions, guide us to the double ko solution. In particular, the introduction tells us that the collection is a mixture of old and new problems. The main characteristic of old problems is that they show us the myoki (wonderful wizardry) in the solutions. The problems were objets d'art, intended for discussion (exactly as we have here). The "solution" was to find the beauty, the wizardry, the talking point. A mini-algorithm approach might give an easier (and uglier) solution, but that is to miss the point.

Although this enlightened and enlightening way of viewing problems was essentially a Chinese one, and was underpinned by names for problems that either led to spotting a fancy solution or that gave food for thought in the discussion, the Japanese encapsulated the implied conventions in the term tsumego. A tsumego is a compressed or miniaturised go position. The rest of the board (or the state of play) doesn't matter. That convention also applies to "new" problems. A problem is a problem, not a mini-game. The derived conventions (such as ladders work, ko threats elsewhere are irrelevant) are well known but are sometimes still spelled out in books and magazines. This is not least because tsumego problems have often been used as prize competitions and so competition rules have to be clearly stated. Shikatsu Myoki was the result of precisely such a prize competition series in a newspaper.

So, while finding new wrinkles, as here, is commendable, it does not mean that the original problem was in any way wrong or flawed (although, of course, some old problems have been found to be flawed, most often because of missing or misplaced stones, probably due to editorial interventions, or carvos).

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 Post subject: Re: Shikatsu Myoki Tsumego Series
Post #28 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:30 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Shaddy wrote:

Due to this variant I think black :b4: may be a mistake and I prefer simply taking the corner with ko by:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . 3 . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . X . X 1 . 4 O O |
$$ . . . . . X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X . X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]


In any case thank you for your help Shaddy, I appreciate.


Wow, this position is more interesting than I thought. If black plays like that, can white just do this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . 3 . 2 b a . |
$$ . . . . X 5 C 1 7 4 O O |
$$ . . . . 6 X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X c X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]


Then if black plays at 'a', there's another double ko at 'b' and 'c'.


Yes Kirby the black position seems not quite good. I agree with you.

Where are we?
The solution given is the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . 4 3 5 2 . 9 . |
$$ . . . . X . X 1 . 6 O O |
$$ . . . . . X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X 7 X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X 8 |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . X O O X . O . |
$$ . . . . X 2 X O . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O O O O 1 O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X O X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]

white is living by double ko and we may (?) assume later the exchange

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . 4 X O O X . O . |
$$ . . . . X O . O . X O O |
$$ . . . . 3 X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X . X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]

Looking at all this sequence it seems to me the exchange :w5: :b6: is not good for white.
So my first question is the following

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . 4 3 . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . X 5 X 1 . . O O |
$$ . . . . . X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X . X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]

Isn't it better for white to take immediatly the ko on the left by :w5: here above? What is the best answer for black?

Second question: seeing the result above isn't it better for black to play simply the sente yose by
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . 4 2 3 7 . . |
$$ . . . . X . X 1 . . O O |
$$ . . . . . X O O O O X O |
$$ . . . . . . X X X X 5 X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]

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