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Can you find this amazing AI move
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Author:  Knotwilg [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Can you find this amazing AI move

I was reviewing a game today and suddenly KataGo came up with a crazy move. I'll show the situation before the move, then progressively include tips

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to move
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . X X . X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O O X O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Describing the situation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 87 to 87
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O a X X . X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . O O X O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


B1 is amistake. Black should connect at A to win the capturing race. But Black thinks he has time to play B1


Describing the problem:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 87 to 87
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O 2 X X . X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . 9 8 6 4 3 1 . O O X O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 7 5 O . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If White cuts at W2, there's this [ladder]


What I did in the game, plus final hint

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 87 to 87
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O 3 X X . X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . O O X O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I played this connection. You can also think of it as a [ladder breaker]. This gives Black time to connect.

KataGo finds another ladder breaker which DOES NOT give Black time to connect.

Author:  baduk [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Ohh this shape looks too familiar,once you solved a similar problem you see it everywhere at first glance

Author:  jlt [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

This?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . X X . X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . 1 X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O O X O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Knotwilg [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

jlt found it and apparently it's a kind of AI cliché already - I'm amazed!

Author:  bernds [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Knotwilg wrote:
jlt found it and apparently it's a kind of AI cliché already - I'm amazed!

Don't know about AI cliche, but I think you see this sort of thing in problem books every now and then. I spotted the move too - I did not spot KataGo's continuation, however. The complications have really only started :)

Author:  John Fairbairn [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Attachment:
Capture.GIF
Capture.GIF [ 224.33 KiB | Viewed 2282 times ]


It's not quite the same thing but I just happen to have this game on my desk as I write. The move was by a young Go Seigen, and is considered so unremarkable it did not even merit a comment.

I have seen this sort of moves many times in real games, and there too it has often been uncommented.

I suggest the following remarks apply:

1. It is a move of a kind you will see a lot of if you replay pro games (as per pro advice) rather than do lots of tsumego (as per amateur obsession).
2. You will see it very occasionally in tsumego problems but rather more often in tesuji colllections (which are, ironically, rarer), as it is a tactical contact-fighting move rather than a killer move. But if you replay lots of pro games you will realise it is a fairly common suji move rather than a tesuji, hence the usual lack of commentary.
3. The second line may the "line of defeat" but it is also often the line for (te)suji, and Sakata above all taught us that. His nickname of Razor came from slicing jugulars on the second line.

What I am saying overall is that this is a frog-in-the-well situation. Said Kermit thinks the sky consists only of the blue circle he can see. (Sorry to be a wee bit Miss Piggy-ish about this.)

Author:  Knotwilg [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Thx John. Yes, the "belly attachment" is a rather common line of play (suji). In the problem I posted, the belly is one line bigger, which makes a difference for me in spotting the move.

I can fathom this is a piece of cake for a pro. So it's not an "AI move" just a move that I happened to discover that way. I'm a little skeptical of the triviality with which it is met but I guess I should replay more pro games so that I too can find this move with the blink of an eye.

Author:  bernds [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Alright, I found the problem I was remembering. Graded Go Problems for Dan Players Volume 5, problem 154.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19
$$-------------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O O X X |
$$ . . X . . . O O X X O . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X O O . |
$$ . . X . . . O O O . X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I think the theme is quite similar.

Author:  Knotwilg [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-------------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 5 O O X X |
$$ . . X . . 2 O O X X O . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X O O . |
$$ . . X . . 3 O O O 4 X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


This?

Author:  bernds [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Knotwilg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-------------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 5 O O X X |
$$ . . X . . 2 O O X X O . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X O O . |
$$ . . X . . 3 O O O 4 X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


This?

Yes, that's one possibility. :b4: and :b5: are essentially miai for Black.

Author:  Harleqin [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

But…

Can Black maybe counter like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . X X . X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . 1 X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . X . O O X O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  bernds [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Harleqin wrote:
But…
Look for a
loose ladder.

Author:  Knotwilg [ Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

More analysis at

https://senseis.xmp.net/?BellyAttachmentLadderBreaker

Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Harleqin wrote:
But…
Can Black maybe counter like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . X X . X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . 1 X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . X . O O X O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No, because...
This reinstates the threat:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . 6 X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . |
$$ | . 4 3 O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O X O . X X . X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . 1 X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . X . O O X O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Knotwilg [ Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Order of moves matters:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . 6 X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . |
$$ | . 4 3 O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O X O 9 X X . X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . 1 X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . 8 2 . . 0 X . O O X O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For example, this would be the wrong order for White

Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Knotwilg wrote:
Order of moves matters:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . 6 X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . |
$$ | . 4 3 O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O X O 9 X X . X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . 1 X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . 8 2 . . 0 X . O O X O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For example, this would be the wrong order for White


I certainly agree that order of moves matter. I'm assuming that we play :w9: as below when faced with :b8:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . 6 X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . |
$$ | . 4 3 O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O X O . X X . X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . 1 X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . 8 2 . . . X . O O X O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . 9 7 . . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White does not have to play G14 to get a good result. Capturing C13 is just as good, and maybe better.

Author:  bernds [ Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19m1
$$ +----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O O X X . .
$$ | . . X O O X O O X X X
$$ | . X X O . X . O O O X
$$ | . X O O X X X O . . X
$$ | . O X O X O 6 X X . X
$$ | . O X X O O X X O X X
$$ | 2 X X 3 4 5 X . O O X
$$ | . 1 O . . O . . O . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Author:  Knotwilg [ Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you find this amazing AI move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black's resistance
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O O X X X O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . 8 X O . X . O O O X O . . O , X . . |
$$ | . 6 5 O X X X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 X O X O 4 X X . X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . 1 X X O O X X O X X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . 9 2 . . . X . O O X O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . a 3 . O . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


This is IMO the correct refutation

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