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 Post subject: Re: New pro teaching in the AI age?
Post #21 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:57 pm 
Gosei
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It's not so much whether A is better than C or vice-versa which is interesting here, but the analysis of the position and the implications of each choice.

Here is a variation discussed by Suzuki until :b8:, Suzuki considers it as bad for White but here is a continuation that Katago likes for White:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . 0 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 6 8 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 7 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 9 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 3 7 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: New pro teaching in the AI age?
Post #22 Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:05 am 
Oza

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jlt: A few disparate points, on either side of the fence.

1. Since we keep on hearing tales of bots changing their minds and agreeing more with humans if we increase the number of playouts (or whatever the current word is), I suppose we have to ask whether that's a factor here.

2. Assuming it's not, I think we need to note that Suzuki did not actually say good or bad - he said Black can cut through immediately. The point there, as I saw it, was that it's a very simple, forcing line of play of the type that humans can follow and be happy about. Pragmatism, in other words. Play only what you can understand,

3. But most interesting to me was that I looked at the final position and my first response was: How on earth can that be good for White? Low on the second line, and all that. But we know that bots don't seem to mind that as much as we do, and so I thought a little more. Then it dawned on me that the White group in the lower right is actually a Go Seigen group. That means we can write off the whole of the "contaminated" lower-right quadrant in territory terms. If we then look at the rest of the board, Black has more than White in the upper right, but on the left side White has a 3:1 majority. So, the idea that White might stand better here suddenly didn't look so fanciful after all! Could Suzuki have a blind spot about GSG groups? They do seem characteristic of only the very best players - Go, Cho Hun-hyeon, Honinbo Shuei - and bots, of course.

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