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 Post subject: New pro teaching in the AI age?
Post #1 Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:21 am 
Oza

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I made a couple of posts a few minutes before this one. One mentioned what we can learn from AI and the other mentioned thickness. That brought to mind an article I had looked at recently, which was interesting in its own right but doubly interesting to me because it seemed to show how pro teaching has changed in the AI era.

The following position is from a long series by Suzuki Shinji 7-dan. His main topic is splitting moves (wariuchi), and within that framework miai. He hints at new insights in a jokey way: because of the coronavirus he's had to spend more time at home and so has been drinking less alcohol. In other words, he's got a clearer head. In one sense. Because he's stuck at home with time to think, he now has to make major dilemma choices for himself: hamburger for lunch or noodles. Miai in other words. And although he doesn't mention AI, I think we can very safely assume from the fact that he is a young player and is stuck at home playing on the internet, he has checked his work using a bot.

I detect a change in the way Suzuki and others are explaining their ideas which reflects this background. If I'm also right in thinking that most pros are now having to write their own articles (magazine sales are falling and proper journalists are expensive), that reinforces my impression of a sea-change in go journalism. Even if you don't care to read the Japanese versions, you will be able to see an example of what I mean if you get the new English version of Shibano's "Fuseki Revolution." He obviously used AI in the background but does not obsess about win rates. He still uses ordinary pro talk. He equally obviously write the series himself - very many personal details and quirky choices. I think Suzuki is in the same mould (along with several other younger writers).

Suzuki is performing quite well himself, incidentally. His official score so far this year is 15-10 (low total games because of CV of course). He's 30. (If you like Michael Caine "not many people know that" facts, there are currently four Nihon Ki-in Suzuki 7-dans. There are NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Suzuki 7ps).

As to what I detect as a change in writing style, it's partly that explanations have become a bit longer. In conjunction, far more technical words are being used. An old fashioned article of this type would typically be meagre fare: a few paragraphs pointing us towards a proverb. In the present case, it might focus on the proverb "keep away from thickness." The new style of explanation, however, adds garnishes, and if it mentions proverbs will often remind you they don't always work. In the present case, words that crop up in the longer-than-usual explanation (that is, apart from the obvious ones in the titles - series title: Learning From Splitting Attacks; problem title: Appreciating Thickness - include, miai, moyos, separation (bundan), open-skirt attacks (susogakari), settling (both types: kime and osamari), targets (nerai), good shape (katachi), invasions (or, more strictly, uchikomi), light stones, and sabaki. And all this is written, I'd say, for kyu players, not fancy dans. (AI age go is about multi-tasking (which is maybe why women are doing so well at the moment :))

This rich fare is the result, as I see it, of pros being more aware, because of AI, of the vast web of interconnections that exists on the go board, and they are assuming that their readers are seeing the same webs too when they look at bot play- and so they are giving readers what they think they now expect.

The problem in question is:

Attachment:
SuzukiMain.GIF
SuzukiMain.GIF [ 66.24 KiB | Viewed 5913 times ]


You can see at once that this is at least an AI-influenced game. You are asked not so much to choose between A, B and C as to talk about each. That will include a modicum of reading, but I would suggest that the easiest way to approach this might be to try to visualise what might happen in each case and then apply all or some of the technical terms listed above. Ideally, you should be able to make the right selection and sort each item into the right hierarchy, but I think just being able to suss out which terms may or may not apply in each case will be a significant and very useful achievement.

All the problems in the series (5 in each episode) can be handled like this. They are in Go World and are still running after almost two years - a sign of popularity? Although they are in Japanese, I think in this case you can get a lot out of them even if you don't know much Japanese. The diagrams are not usually marked as correct or wrong, but higher kyus and dans should be able to make reasonable judgements. What I would say is essential, though, is to familiarise yourself with the Japanese words for the major terms such as those listed above. If you can spot these in the text you are more than halfway home. (I expect Richard Hunter's books on Japanese will give you the necessary head start.) At least I think you will be able to start appreciating what pros are talking about most in the new AI age. The frequency of certain terms, or frequency of conjunctions of terms, will also be picked up by your subconscious brain at least, leading to a better intuition. As implied above, these remarks apply to other recent serials by younger pros.

Assuming there's some decent response here, I'll give Suzuki's explanations later.

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 Post subject: Re: New pro teaching in the AI age?
Post #2 Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:11 am 
Honinbo

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I like C.

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 Post subject: Re: New pro teaching in the AI age?
Post #3 Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:43 am 
Gosei
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Let's try A:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . g f . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . e O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b3: weakens a bit the upper right corner since if White gets a chance to capture at d then Black is leftt witout base, however Black has a continuation with e, White f, BLack g so Black is not really in danger. The lower right corner is rather big. I know it's not completely Black's but it's difficult to reduce or invade.

Let's try B.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It looks even worse. The lower right is more secure and the upper right black group is less under pressure.

Let's try C.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks comfortale for White.

Black may choose to pincer from the other side, this still looks fine for White:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So my order of preference is C > A > B. This is probably wrong.

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Post #4 Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:00 am 
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For me, the context also includes the other hot spots on the board: the looming double hane on top, the continuation in the lower left corner, and the upper left corner, which for me seems to scream for a 3-3 invasion.

What is curious for me is that it is only A, B, and C, but not D (keimagakari). Also, when such a row of possible answers is given, often the answer is »too close here; too close there; just right«, so that just from this meta level, B is more likely to be right, without even putting more than a cursory glance of effort into it.

Anyway. A has a certain flavour of symmetry to me, since Black can approach from both sides with a two space extension. However, coming from the upper side feels much too close to the thick black position above, so Black C can be seen as the side Black would choose (if they answer here at all), and then White would have a two space extension as well—but jumping into the centre might be more appropriate at that point. To me, this is all cramped and too close to the upper side thickness.

B makes the Black approach from the upper right a bit less cramped; this would then make White seek good options to settle. The one space extension just invites the kick and seems (for lack of better words) lame. The two space slide might be OK, but also a bit complicated if Black attaches from the corner and White wedges in. Finally, White might jump to the centre; and I don't think that Black would be too happy to jump along, but if Black plays from the other side instead, White settles quite easily with P10. So, Black might instead limit White from the lower corner, but then White has the two-space extension which is not so cramped in this case. So, B seems to more or less nullify the right side.

C I would gladly pincer as Black. Of course, White can settle with the two-space slide into the corner and/or one-space jump to the centre, but I think that Black has no headache making the black stones work together.

D (not in the original) seems to just flatly fail because of kick-and-pincer.

So, I think B or C are similar, but it is unclearer for Black how to answer B, so I would choose that.

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Post #5 Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:56 am 
Gosei
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Harleqin wrote:

B makes the Black approach from the upper right a bit less cramped; this would then make White seek good options to settle. The one space extension just invites the kick and seems (for lack of better words) lame. The two space slide might be OK, but also a bit complicated if Black attaches from the corner and White wedges in.


Just to make sure I understand your comment,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 5 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


and now the fun begins.

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Post #6 Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:27 am 
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jlt wrote:
Let's try A:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I really have no good idea how to choose between the three moves. But I wonder if you wouldn't follow up by attaching to Black's strong stones, like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . g f . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . e O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Post #7 Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:00 pm 
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bernds wrote:
But I wonder if you wouldn't follow up by attaching to Black's strong stones, …


Not sure, I'd think about countering like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |[/go]

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Post #8 Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:35 pm 
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jlt wrote:
Just to make sure I understand your comment ... And now the fun begins.
These articles take too much time for me to read. I just pick and choose. But having seen this, apparently the standard response according to Suzuki, is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Right: the standard response. :wt: is kōichi 好位置 (a new word for me) a good position/location. Points a and b are 見合い miai. Also, Japanese uses different characters when numerically counting things and 位 gets to be the counter for ghosts. \n Left: (note: :ws: is move 11). :b2: is 手筋 tesuji. In this sequence, White is kyōka 強化 (another new word for me) strengthening/solidifying. White can look at 'a'.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O . . | - . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ . . . O O X O X . . | - . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ , . . X X X X . . . | - , . . X X X X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . | - . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . a . . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . | - , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 9 . O 5 . | - . . . . . . . Q . . |
$$ . . . . . @ 8 3 2 . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 7 4 X 1 . | - . . . . . . a 6 9 . |
$$ . . . . . 0 O X O . | - . . . . . . 5 2 O . |
$$ , . . . . X X O X . | - , . . . . 8 X 1 X . |
$$ . . . . X . O O X . | - . . . . X . 7 3 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 6 . | - . . . . . . . . b . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #9 Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:11 pm 
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I've already glanced at some of the diagrams. Which I don't think I can appreciate yet anyway. But for me personally, Point A seems not so good because of Black's thickness. I consider black's keima and the wall to be thickness, as opposed to a direct 3-3 joseki having a wall and no extension, which I don't consider thick. If black plays C in response to A, white can jump 2 spaces along the side. But now white is really close to black's thickness and black can attack and probably get to reinforce C while White settles. This looks like an example from a proverb book "don't play too close to thickness."

Point C seems not so good because it lets black pincer at A, which seems not so close to thickness. Maybe another classic example in a proverb book. And white is also closer to black's lower corner, which already has the keima. I feel like white will have some trouble settling while Black gets to build a bigger moyo in the upper right and make the lower right into territory.

Maybe B is best. But if it were me personally, I think I would be looking at A moved to the 4th line. But back to B, if black responds from the lowerside, that seems too convenient for White. So I don't think that will happen. If black plays from the upper side, their moyo is a bit reduced compared to if White played C. And White is less cramped against the lower-corner than if White played C. So, I think B is OK.

Unfortunately (for me) Suzuki doesn't give 正解 or 失敗 in the headers, so I would have to read or study more to find out.

Kind of off topic, but Shibano's articles seems simpler for a beginner to read than Suzuki's.

Also, Suzuki won his games in section A of the Gosei.

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Post #10 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:49 am 
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CDavis7M wrote:
But having seen this, apparently the standard response according to Suzuki, is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Right: the standard response. :wt: is kōichi 好位置 (a new word for me) a good position/location. Points a and b are 見合い miai. Also, Japanese uses different characters when numerically counting things and 位 gets to be the counter for ghosts. \n Left: (note: :ws: is move 11). :b2: is 手筋 tesuji. In this sequence, White is kyōka 強化 (another new word for me) strengthening/solidifying. White can look at 'a'.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O . . | - . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ . . . O O X O X . . | - . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ , . . X X X X . . . | - , . . X X X X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . | - . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . a . . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . | - , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 9 . O 5 . | - . . . . . . . Q . . |
$$ . . . . . @ 8 3 2 . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 7 4 X 1 . | - . . . . . . a 6 9 . |
$$ . . . . . 0 O X O . | - . . . . . . 5 2 O . |
$$ , . . . . X X O X . | - , . . . . 8 X 1 X . |
$$ . . . . X . O O X . | - . . . . X . 7 3 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 6 . | - . . . . . . . . b . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . | - . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't how much standard it is but if

John Fairbairn wrote:
all this is written, I'd say, for kyu players, not fancy dans


then this is probably a good place for kyus to mess up. I know a standard sequence that starts like the one on the right but the presence of :wt: affects the continuation, so I am not familiar with the left diagram.

Anyway at the early opening, and outside contact fights, AI has shown us that compared to optimal play almost any move loses at most 2 points. Therefore a,b or c, and certainly many other moves are playable as long as our strategy is consistent.

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Post #11 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:10 am 
Oza
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I'm not investing in the exercise as outlined but I'm offering shodan thinking, or the way mine goes in this case. I'm highlighting a couple of non-Japanese terms.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . . O O O 4 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 O O X O X 2 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


First, I'm picturing the following "completion" of the upper right corner, not per se in that order. Black becomes VERY thick hence playing away as far as possible from it seems the best choice. So I'll treat that as a default:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this way Black gets a corner and sente, while White establishes comfortably on the side. Locally this is good for Black but Black has invested in that thickness. White has 2 corners where she played first, 1 definite corner and komi. This looks passive for Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 3 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X a b . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If Black pincers here, I would as Black welcome the attachment at A or the scoop at B because it will turn the corner into territory. As White I would be inclined to avoid that and play this sequence, reducing the efficiency of Black's upper strength.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If White enters the side here, so NOT away from thickness, the choice for Black is clear. Even if :b2: doesn't secure the corner, the corner becomes large enough to compete with White's potential. :w3: feels too close to strength.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This leaves :w1: here. As Black I'm ambivalent about the answers. A is not securing the corner territory (I believe a ko is still possible, depending on other outside stones) and B is closer to the upper strength than the first choice, so less efficient.

Others have shown the sacrifice in the corner White can create here. That's not part of my repertoire.

As Black I would be happiest if White played C in the original diagram, then A, then B.
As White I should therefore probably choose B but given the simplicity of it, I might still choose C :)


Last edited by Knotwilg on Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #12 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:14 am 
Gosei

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Surely it's wrong to introduce a stationary group on the right hand side.

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Post #13 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:42 am 
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What is a "stationary group"? I'm not familiar with that Japanese term.

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Post #14 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:13 am 
Oza

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Here is Suzuki's answer. Because of the limit on attachments I have to break it up into parts. I have added an editorial comment in [], and will first add a prefatory comment here.

Wariuchi is a go technical term. It is not part of the ordinary language and so has to be explained to new go players. Since Suzuki is not explaining the term itself, he is clearly aiming at players who already have some experience.

Those experienced players will have probably all learnt about wariuchi in the usual, traditional way. That is, it is a splitting move inside a growing sphere of influence of the opponent. It is usually in or near the centre, and usually on the third line so that it offers a safe miai move (normally a two-space extension) on either side. By the usual definition of invasion in English it is actually also an invasion, and it would be viewed as such by a Japanese person. But a Japanese person would not call it an uchikomi, which is normally the source word for our "invasion". Strictly, an uchikomi is driving in a wedge. It is full of risk. A wariuchi is usually considered safe - the factors to consider are more to do with efficiency than safety. But in teaching beginners, pros have traditionally played up the safety aspect and downplayed efficiency. The result has been a proverb-based treatment that can be summed up as: make a safe two-space extension but don't get too close to thickness.

I have a strong impression that this has changed, and I think the present article confirms it. Splitting moves have become one of the topics pros have been reviewing heavily with AI, and they seem to accept that now a less assertive and much more nuanced assessment has to be made (which applies in other areas ass well, of course). A change that follows from that is giving more attention to both players' options, not just the wariuchi side.

My software does not allow lower-case letters without a lot of hassle, so here A refers to the main Topic Figure choice and 'A' to variation diagram letters.

TRANSLATION

TOPIC FIGURE 4 - APPRECIATION OF THICKNESS [Part 1]

Attachment:
SuzukiMain.GIF
SuzukiMain.GIF [ 66.24 KiB | Viewed 5641 times ]

This is the position after Black's push to 19 in the upper-right corner.

It has come down to a situation where a splitting move is called for on the right side. Recall then what you practised in Topic Figure 3 [not given here] and select the next move A ~ C by thinking carefully about the strengths and weaknesses of the stones.

Attachment:
SuzukiDiag1.GIF
SuzukiDiag1.GIF [ 45.24 KiB | Viewed 5641 times ]

Diagram 1 (Two-space extension but too close to thickness)
If White plays the splitting move at 1 [A in the Topic Figure], he can next extend two spaces either way, to 'A' or 3. It is a common way to play, the fundamental form of the splitting move. But in this position Black will surely come in with the blocking extension at 2. White can then extend two spaces to 3 but this ends up too close to Black's thickness.

Attachment:
SuzukiDiag2.GIF
SuzukiDiag2.GIF [ 44.83 KiB | Viewed 5641 times ]

Diagram 2 (Attackable from the centre)
Going on, Black will likely attack, full of power, with 4. If White makes the kosumi at 5, that is solid but he will still be under pressure when Black caps at 6. White will not die, but it will take quite few moves before he is settled, and Black will in the process solidify his territory in the lower right. He will also be building a large sphere of influence on the lower side.

But if, instead of 5, White were to jump out to 'A', Black can promptly cut through the extension with Black 5, White 'B', Black 'C'. So, White 1 in Diagram 1 has approached too close to thickness.


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Post #15 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:18 am 
Oza

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[Translation - Part 2]
Attachment:
SuzukiDiag3.GIF
SuzukiDiag3.GIF [ 43.6 KiB | Viewed 5640 times ]

Diagram 3 (One space further away)
White 1 [B in the Topic Figure] is a good point, one line further away from the thickness. If White then extends to 3 in answer to Black 2, he now has room to play 'A' or 'B', and so his shape gives him more elbow room than Diagram 1.

Attachment:
SuzukiDiag4.GIF
SuzukiDiag4.GIF [ 45.31 KiB | Viewed 5640 times ]

Diagram 4 (The open-skirt approach)
If Black makes a blocking extension downwards to 2, White's open-skirt approach is an interesting move. If Black then makes a narabi block, White jumps to 5 and gets a settled shape without even making a two-space extension.

Attachment:
SuzukiDiag5.GIF
SuzukiDiag5.GIF [ 44.83 KiB | Viewed 5640 times ]

Diagram 5 (Not bad, but ...)
Instead of 4 in Diagram 4, Black may attach at 1. Then White 2 and 4 are simple and not bade, and he has a shape that is safe if also a little as if walking through a swamp.


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Post #16 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:20 am 
Oza

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[Translation - Part 3]

Attachment:
SuzukiDiag6.GIF
SuzukiDiag6.GIF [ 45.53 KiB | Viewed 5640 times ]

Diagram 6 (Wedge)
Rather than White 2 in Diagram 5, I would want to try the wedge-in at White 1. If Black responds at 2 and 4, White forces at 5 and so has made something of a gain. After Black 6, White plays 7 and has a secure shape.

Attachment:
SuzukiDiag7.GIF
SuzukiDiag7.GIF [ 46.08 KiB | Viewed 5640 times ]

Diagram 7 (∆ is at a good point)
If Black resists White 1 with 2 and 4, White 5 to 9 is a fixed pattern. In this case the ∆ stone is on a good point and so 'A' and 'B' next are miai for him.

Attachment:
SuzukiDiag8.GIF
SuzukiDiag8.GIF [ 47.08 KiB | Viewed 5640 times ]

Diagram 8
(White has been strengthened)
Continuing, Black 10 is a tesuji and so he can at least play on two sides, at 12 and 14, but after White 19 White has become extremely strong, and it looks as if he can aim at the invasion at 'A'.


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Post #17 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:23 am 
Oza

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[Translation - Part 4]

Attachment:
SuzukiDiag9.GIF
SuzukiDiag9.GIF [ 44.91 KiB | Viewed 5639 times ]

Diagram 9 (A one-space extension is too narrow)
After White 1 and Black 2, unlike the open-skirt approach of Diagram 4, White's extension to 3 is probably a little narrow. Black can attack at 4 and 6 and in the process be building up a moyo on the lower side.

Attachment:
SuzukiDiag10.GIF
SuzukiDiag10.GIF [ 44.24 KiB | Viewed 5639 times ]

Diagram 10 (Approaching one step further)
In this position, it is also interesting to approach one step closer down with White 1 [C of the Topic Figure]/ If Black 'A@, White extends to 'B' and has even more room than in Diagram 3.

[The next sentence in the original seems to have been misplaced. I have moved it to * in the next part.]

Attachment:
SuzukiDiag11.GIF
SuzukiDiag11.GIF [ 45.08 KiB | Viewed 5639 times ]

Diagram 11 (Attachment and pull-back)
Black blocks downwards with 2. After the attachment and pull-back of White 3 and 5, White can settle himself with the slide to 7. Next White 'A' at the 3-3 point or the jump to 'B' are miai. will be happy with the sequence of this diagram.


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Post #18 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:25 am 
Oza

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[Translation - Part 5]

Attachment:
SuzukiDiag12.GIF
SuzukiDiag12.GIF [ 45.64 KiB | Viewed 5637 times ]

Diagram 12 (Black's counter-attack)
However, there is a risk that Black may answer White's attachment 1 with the counter-attack 2 and 4. White must be sure to answer these moves reliably.

Attachment:
SuzukiDiag13.GIF
SuzukiDiag13.GIF [ 46.52 KiB | Viewed 5637 times ]

Diagram 13 (Sabaki achieved)
Continuing from Diagram 12, if White can settle the situation with 7 and 9 and then attach at 11, he will have coped well [made sabaki] overall on the right side. If he then more or less copes in the corner, his four stones including ∆ can be treated as light [i.e. can be sacrificed] and will not be an issue. As one example, if Black later hanes at 'A', White cuts at 'B'. Then if Black 'C', White 'D', Black 'E', White now has 'F', Black G', White 'H'. Although this diagram may be rather difficult, White would be happier with this rather than simply with the sequences of Diagrams 3 or 4. [*] The later sabaki (coping), as in Diagrams 12 and 13, may be a little difficult, but among pros many would would be likely to play this way.


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Post #19 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:46 am 
Lives in sente

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Knotwilg wrote:
I'm not investing in the exercise as outlined but I'm offering shodan thinking, or the way mine goes in this case. I'm highlighting a couple of non-Japanese terms.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . . O O O 4 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 O O X O X 2 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I see that the exchange :b4: :w5: is good for black but what about the following answer:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O X 2 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Post #20 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:35 pm 
Lives in sente
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John Fairbairn wrote:
The later sabaki (coping), as in Diagrams 12 and 13, may be a little difficult, but among pros many would would be likely to play this way.
You know, AI made the opening relatively easy. There are fewer joseki played and the joseki are shorter and simpler. So that was nice. But now we see AI increasing the difficulty with Suzuki suggesting point C (at least that's what Pros would play), even if it looks a little difficult. Diagrams 12 and 13 from C do look a little difficult! B seems to lead to an easier/safer sequence and is probably what I will remember. But that comes back to the point of your post: in the past a pro might have recommended something simple but now they are presenting a more nuanced assessment.

I hadn't thought about it before but that seems to be the case here. So it's not just that the Lecturer is presenting an AI suggestion given the prevalence of AI (which happens), but also that the Lecturer is providing a more complex human assessment of the position compared to pre-AI teaching.

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