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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #101 Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:47 am 
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dany wrote:
Several years ago, in his lecture, Alexander Dinerstein 3p talked about solving this problem.
But imho not all the important moves were explained in his lecture, and some were wrong

Alexander Dinerstein 3p: The most difficult yose problem
great explanation, even though some moves were wrong

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #102 Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:34 am 
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dany wrote:
dany wrote:
Several years ago, in his lecture, Alexander Dinerstein 3p talked about solving this problem.
But imho not all the important moves were explained in his lecture, and some were wrong

Alexander Dinerstein 3p: The most difficult yose problem
great explanation, even though some moves were wrong


Just a question Dany. IMO the main idea of the problem is to have a difficult ko fight which have to be prepared correctly, where the ko threats are more or less hidden, and where the different ko threats have to be played in the correct order. For me the length of the sequence is not really the point.
In this sense isn't it more interesting to limit the number of ininteresting moves (filling dame while the opponent simply pass).

What about this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play, komi 0.5
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X B O B X X . |
$$ | . . O O O W . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X , . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O . X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , . O , X X X O . . |
$$ | O . . X X O O O X X O . . |
$$ | X . O . O . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . X O X . O . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #103 Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:46 am 
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After a small change in the order of Black's ko threats (analogous to the order in the video), the White ko trick no longer seems to work, Black seems to refute it. But maybe I'm missing something...

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #104 Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:26 am 
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jmeinh wrote:
After a small change in the order of Black's ko threats (analogous to the order in the video), the White ko trick no longer seems to work, Black seems to refute it. But maybe I'm missing something...


Yes, if black use top right ko threats before the bottom ko threat, then the trick stops working. And it's even good. There is some artificiality and senselessness in the trick. It doesn't add anything important to the solution.

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #105 Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:57 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
dany wrote:
dany wrote:
Several years ago, in his lecture, Alexander Dinerstein 3p talked about solving this problem.
But imho not all the important moves were explained in his lecture, and some were wrong

Alexander Dinerstein 3p: The most difficult yose problem
great explanation, even though some moves were wrong


Just a question Dany. IMO the main idea of the problem is to have a difficult ko fight which have to be prepared correctly, where the ko threats are more or less hidden, and where the different ko threats have to be played in the correct order. For me the length of the sequence is not really the point.
In this sense isn't it more interesting to limit the number of ininteresting moves (filling dame while the opponent simply pass).

What about this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play, komi 0.5
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X B O B X X . |
$$ | . . O O O W . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X , . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O . X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , . O , X X X O . . |
$$ | O . . X X O O O X X O . . |
$$ | X . O . O . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . X O X . O . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


with F12 and K13 stones not the same problem

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #106 Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:05 pm 
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jmeinh wrote:
After a small change in the order of Black's ko threats (analogous to the order in the video), the White ko trick no longer seems to work, Black seems to refute it. But maybe I'm missing something...


Let me try to change your :w70: move:


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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #107 Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:22 pm 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
jmeinh wrote:
After a small change in the order of Black's ko threats (analogous to the order in the video), the White ko trick no longer seems to work, Black seems to refute it. But maybe I'm missing something...


Let me try to change your :w70: move:


Well, at least I cannot refute this refutation of my "refutation". Very good! Really amazing, this ko stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #108 Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:58 pm 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Let me try to change your :w70: move:



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm67
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X X O X 4 X O |
$$ | . . O O O O X X O 6 X O O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O X X , . X X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . W 3 O . |
$$ | O O O O O X O 2 O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X X O X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X 1 X X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O O X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X O |
$$ | . X O X O . X O X O O O 5 |
$$ | O X O X O O . O X X O 7 O |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

67 erase white ko threat. white fail

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #109 Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:46 am 
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jmeinh wrote:
After a small change in the order of Black's ko threats (analogous to the order in the video), the White ko trick no longer seems to work, Black seems to refute it. But maybe I'm missing something...


Your proposal finally seems to works following Dany improvment.
For me the longest best sequence is now the following (102 moves):


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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #110 Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:05 am 
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dany wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Just a question Dany. IMO the main idea of the problem is to have a difficult ko fight which have to be prepared correctly, where the ko threats are more or less hidden, and where the different ko threats have to be played in the correct order. For me the length of the sequence is not really the point.
In this sense isn't it more interesting to limit the number of ininteresting moves (filling dame while the opponent simply pass).

What about this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play, komi 0.5
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X B O B X X . |
$$ | . . O O O W . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X , . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O . X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , . O , X X X O . . |
$$ | O . . X X O O O X X O . . |
$$ | X . O . O . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . X O X . O . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


with F12 and K13 stones not the same problem


I do not see why the basic sequence would not be the same. ;-)

BTW what about this other position with an empty intersection at D13. Because one of the idea is to prepare the ko fight. Instead of just preparing the ko threats in the upper rignt corner this empty intersection I propose forces black to prepare in addition the ko theat in the upper left corner. That way the all variation has two more moves but it is not really the point. My view is only to add the difficulty of preparing far in advance the ko threat in the upper left corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play, komi 0.5
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O M X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X , . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O . X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , . O , X X X O . . |
$$ | O . . X X O O O X X O . . |
$$ | X . O . O . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . X O X . O . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

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