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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #61 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:51 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm72 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b21: :w8:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X X O . O . O |
$$ | . 1 O O O O X X O . X . O |
$$ | . O X X O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . O X O X X , . X X X X O |
$$ | . a Z O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X X O X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O O X X X O b X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X O |
$$ | . X O X O . X O X O O O . |
$$ | O X O X O O . O X X O . O |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

White will connect at :w72: in the upper left corner (instead of at A at the left edge), so erasing a Black ko-threat!
=> White +

:bx: is not really a genuine ko-threat!
Capturing at White B would also result in a White win!

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #62 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:15 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm72 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b21: :w8:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X X O . O . O |
$$ | . 1 O O O O X X O . X . O |
$$ | . O X X O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . O X O X X , . X X X X O |
$$ | . a Z O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X X O X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O O X X X O b X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X O |
$$ | . X O X O . X O X O O O . |
$$ | O X O X O O . O X X O . O |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

White will connect at :w72: in the upper left corner (instead of at A at the left edge), so erasing a Black ko-threat!
=> White +

:bx: is not really a genuine ko-threat!
Capturing at White B would also result in a White win!

Yes, I agree. Then (if only because of the additional white ko-threats on K8 etc.) it is again Black who needs help...

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #63 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:02 am 
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jmeinh wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm72 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b21: :w8:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X X O . O . O |
$$ | . 1 O O O O X X O . X . O |
$$ | . O X X O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . O X O X X , . X X X X O |
$$ | . a Z O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X X O X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O O X X X O b X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X O |
$$ | . X O X O . X O X O O O . |
$$ | O X O X O O . O X X O . O |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

White will connect at :w72: in the upper left corner (instead of at A at the left edge), so erasing a Black ko-threat!
=> White +

:bx: is not really a genuine ko-threat!
Capturing at White B would also result in a White win!

Yes, I agree. Then (if only because of the additional white ko-threats on K8 etc.) it is again Black who needs help...


Yes. What about this new one (119 moves):


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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #64 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:16 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Yes. What about this new one (119 moves):

It's the same issue as mentioned before.

Black's atari :b71: at White's six stones at the upper edge is NO genuine ko-threat.
=> White will capture the ko and win by 1.5 points (it results a change in the order of moves with the older line, where Black created a five-stone string).

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #65 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:39 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Yes. What about this new one (119 moves):

It's the same issue as mentioned before.

Black's atari :b71: at White's six stones at the upper edge is NO genuine ko-threat.
=> White will capture the ko and win by 1.5 points (it results a change in the order of moves with the older line, where Black created a five-stone string).


Yes. At least the number of ideas increases but we have still to find this very long sequence.

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #66 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:08 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
At least the number of ideas increases but we have still to find this very long sequence.

I have not checked this yet (and so do not have any idea whether the hint might be useful / succesful applicable):

Have you ever tried your idea (seems reasonable in principle) at the other stage of the ko-fight in the lower right corner?

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #67 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:34 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Yes. What about this new one (119 moves):


almost the solution, but the order of ko threats matters

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #68 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:46 am 
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dany wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Yes. What about this new one (119 moves):


almost the solution, but the order of ko threats matters


Here is a new attempt with 113 moves and a black win by 0.5 points:


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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #69 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:51 am 
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dany wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Yes. What about this new one (119 moves):
almost the solution, but the order of ko threats matters

At least one correct "feeling" in the last stage of the solution finding ...
:razz:

However, I still don't like the large number of White pass-"moves" in this problem.
Taken together with the large difference in the number of Black and White stones in the starting position, this gives an "unbalanced" impression.

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #70 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:01 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Yes. What about this new one (119 moves):

If White captures the bottom right stones with move 88, S must capture the top right corner with 2 moves and it ends again with W+0.5 .

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #71 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:15 am 
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jmeinh wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Yes. What about this new one (119 moves):
If White captures the bottom right stones with move 88, S must capture the top right corner with 2 moves and it ends again with W+0.5 .

Black only needs to invest ONE stone in the top right, because it is enough to capture the single White stone there.
=> Black + 0.5.

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You really meant the 113-move solution attempt, didn't you?

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)


Last edited by Cassandra on Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #72 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:45 am 
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jmeinh wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Yes. What about this new one (119 moves):

If White captures the bottom right stones with move 88, S must capture the top right corner with 2 moves and it ends again with W+0.5 .


I hope the last adjustement:


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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #73 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:50 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Here is a new attempt with 113 moves and a black win by 0.5 points:

Not yet

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm88
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X X O X O . O |
$$ | . . O O O O X X O . X O O |
$$ | . O X X O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . O X O X X , . X X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . X . X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X O X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X X O 1 . |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O . O |
$$ | . X O X O O . O X O O O . |
$$ | O X O X O O . O X X O . O |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

W+0.5

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #74 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:03 pm 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
jmeinh wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Yes. What about this new one (119 moves):

If White captures the bottom right stones with move 88, S must capture the top right corner with 2 moves and it ends again with W+0.5 .


I hope the last adjustement:


This looks promising! May we already congratulate you? What does Dany say?

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #75 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:19 pm 
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jmeinh wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:

I hope the last adjustement:


This looks promising! May we already congratulate you? What does Dany say?


Not yet

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm87
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X X O . O . O |
$$ | . . O O O O X X O O . O O |
$$ | . O X X O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . O X O X X , . X X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . X . X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X O X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X X O 2 X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X O |
$$ | . X O X O 3 X O X O O O . |
$$ | O X O X O O 1 O X X O . O |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


W+0.5

crazy ko mechanics ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #76 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:38 pm 
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Also, what happens if on move 53 Black responds to white move 52 cut by connecting solidly? Is it worth gaining one stage in the ko to allow white to set up the squeeze and future ko threats there?

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #77 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:25 pm 
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lightvector wrote:
Also, what happens if on move 53 Black responds to white move 52 cut by connecting solidly? Is it worth gaining one stage in the ko to allow white to set up the squeeze and future ko threats there?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm52
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X X O . O . O |
$$ | . . O O O O X X O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O X X , . X X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X 1 . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X 2 . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O O X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X 3 |
$$ | . X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | O X O X O O . O X X O . O |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


53 cost 1 point for black
black suffers from a lack of good ko threats

W+0.5

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #78 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:21 am 
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dany wrote:
jmeinh wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:

I hope the last adjustement:


This looks promising! May we already congratulate you? What does Dany say?


Not yet

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm87
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X X O . O . O |
$$ | . . O O O O X X O O . O O |
$$ | . O X X O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . O X O X X , . X X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . X . X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X O X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X X O 2 X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X O |
$$ | . X O X O 3 X O X O O O . |
$$ | O X O X O O 1 O X X O . O |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


W+0.5

crazy ko mechanics ;-)


I keep my spirits up. Let's try this new sequence:


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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #79 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:21 pm 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:

I keep my spirits up. Let's try this new sequence:




Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm88
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X X O . O . O |
$$ | . . O O O O X X O O . O O |
$$ | . O X X O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . O X O X X , . X X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X 1 . X . X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X O X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | . X O X O O . O X O O O X |
$$ | O X O X O O . O X X O . O |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


Not the best move. Move in the bottom left corner is better

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #80 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 3:16 pm 
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dany wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm88
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X X O . O . O |
$$ | . . O O O O X X O O . O O |
$$ | . O X X O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . O X O X X , . X X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X 1 . X . X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X O X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | . X O X O O . O X O O O X |
$$ | O X O X O O . O X X O . O |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


Not the best move. Move in the bottom left corner is better


Yes Dany. Though it is not the best result, it seems white is able to force an impressive 121 moves sequence.


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