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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #41 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:25 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play, komi 0.5
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X , . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X B . X X |
$$ | . O B . O X . . . . . W . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . W X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O . X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , . O , X X X O . . |
$$ | O . . X X O O O X X O . . |
$$ | X . O . O . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . X O X . O . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

BTW what is the meaning of the marked stones above.

Good question ;-)

Hint 1. The problem's main diamonds are still hidden
Hint 2. The solution is much longer

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #42 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:39 am 
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dany wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play, komi 0.5
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X , . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X B . X X |
$$ | . O B . O X . . . . . W . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . W X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O . X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , . O , X X X O . . |
$$ | O . . X X O O O X X O . . |
$$ | X . O . O . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . X O X . O . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

BTW what is the meaning of the marked stones above.

Good question ;-)

Hint 1. The problem's main diamonds are still hidden
Hint 2. The solution is much longer


What do mean by your Hint2 ? I do not get the point.

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #43 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:43 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
BTW what is the meaning of the marked stones above.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Komi = 0.5
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . Z O O O W B . O . . . . |
$$ | . . Z . O X X X O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O B X , . . X X X . |
$$ | . # . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O Y . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O . X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , . O , X X X O . . |
$$ | O . . X X O O O X X O . . |
$$ | X . O . O . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . X O X . O . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

I do not have any idea for the right side, but for the upper left corner ...

If White's upper string got into some kind of damezumari (through something like :bc: :wc:, concrete sequence still unknown), Black might get the change to place the two :bx: stones, due to the multi-stage-ko in the lower right corner.
Thereafter, :bs: might become interesting, at least as a ko threat.
And suddenly, there might be some kind of semeai (at least the threat of a seki), as White's group does not have sooo many liberties thereafter ...

With regard to the upper left corner, we will have to remember that Black might be able to play at least two moves in a row locally, probably three.

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)


Last edited by Cassandra on Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:55 am, edited 5 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #44 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:47 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
dany wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play, komi 0.5
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X , . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X B . X X |
$$ | . O B . O X . . . . . W . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . W X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O . X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , . O , X X X O . . |
$$ | O . . X X O O O X X O . . |
$$ | X . O . O . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . X O X . O . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

BTW what is the meaning of the marked stones above.

Good question ;-)

Hint 1. The problem's main diamonds are still hidden
Hint 2. The solution is much longer


What do mean by your Hint2 ? I do not get the point.


The current solution has 67 moves. The real solution has over 100 moves

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #45 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:35 am 
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dany wrote:
jmeinh wrote:
- column 3 has a mistake (move 49 should better be N2)

No. "Column #3: Black loses a ko-threat, as :b49: is mandatory here."
If black N2 then white 49 and erase black ko threats

thank you, I had somehow overlooked this comment. (Now I feel dizzy...)

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #46 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:02 am 
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dany wrote:
The current solution has 67 moves. The real solution has over 100 moves

Since Black wins against the strongest white defence we could find so far, that can only mean that W has an even stronger defence somewhere, right? (Unless Black is greedy and wants a better score than B+0,5. But that's hard for me to believe; the result so far and the balance of the furikawaris give a impression of perfection to me...)

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #47 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:03 am 
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dany wrote:
The current solution has 67 moves. The real solution has over 100 moves


Oops, does that mean it is possible for white to choose a far longer defense? It is more and more unbelivable. Could you give us another hint? Maybe where white can make another choice?

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #48 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:17 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
dany wrote:
The current solution has 67 moves. The real solution has over 100 moves


Oops, does that mean it is possible for white to choose a far longer defense? It is more and more unbelivable. Could you give us another hint? Maybe where white can make another choice?


The same ko but with more ko threats :)

Hint 3. In the position are more ko threats. But white and also black must prepare them...beforehand

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #49 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:03 am 
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dany wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
dany wrote:
The current solution has 67 moves. The real solution has over 100 moves


Oops, does that mean it is possible for white to choose a far longer defense? It is more and more unbelivable. Could you give us another hint? Maybe where white can make another choice?


The same ko but with more ko threats :)

Hint 3. In the position are more ko threats. But white and also black must prepare them...beforehand


Is it a good improvment ? (I still need some more work to continue from this new idea)


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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #50 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:23 am 
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dany wrote:
The same ko but with more ko threats :)

Hint 3. In the position are more ko threats. But white and also black must prepare them...beforehand


Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Is it a good improvment ? (I still need some more work to continue from this new idea)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm24
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O 2 X , . X X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O 1 X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . O X X O . X |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


Yes, 24 and 25 prepare ko threats

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #51 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:34 am 
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dany wrote:
dany wrote:
The same ko but with more ko threats :)

Hint 3. In the position are more ko threats. But white and also black must prepare them...beforehand


Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Is it a good improvment ? (I still need some more work to continue from this new idea)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm24
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O 2 X , . X X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O 1 X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . O X X O . X |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


Yes, 24 and 25 prepare ko threats


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm24
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O X X , . B B B B O |
$$ | . . . O O X . B B B . B B |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . W . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O O X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . O X X O . X |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


What I have not yet discovered is how to use the white marked stone. I guess I can build a damezumari on the black marked group but it is not clear if I have to search an atari or a seki. I continue to search. In any case it is quite interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #52 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:41 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm59 Komi = 0.5; prisoners :b19: :w5:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X X O . O . O |
$$ | . 1 O O O O X X O . X . O |
$$ | . . X a O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O X X , . X X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O Z . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X O . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X X . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X O . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O O X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X O |
$$ | . X O X O . X O X O O O . |
$$ | O X O X O O . O X X O . O |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

I would like to suggest this :b59:.

Black's :bx: does not have any benefit for the ensuing sequence after the used move at A, so it is unlikely that A is the correct choice here.

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #53 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:52 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X X O X X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X X O . X X O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O X X B W W X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O O X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . O X X O . X |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

Just another matter of shape:

Before the ko starts, White would like to have created another formation at the top ( :wc: :bc:), reducing Black's string to the left to only three liberties.

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)


Last edited by Cassandra on Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #54 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:00 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X , . . X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O , X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . . X X O . M |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

Just another deep "feeling":

I can't really believe that the correct solution sequence should contain so many White passes.
Therefore, I do not "feel" that Black will play :b21: at :ex: in the lower right corner.

Additionally, I do not "feel" that White would start the ko-fight, as this measure would cost her some Black stones in her prisoners lid.

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Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #55 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:48 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X , . . X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O , X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . 2 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


After :b21: we saw that this :w22: is losing.
What about the move below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X , . 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O , X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . . X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


and now if
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X , 3 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O , X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . 4 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]
and white has gained one point

and if
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O 8 X 5 4 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O 9 X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O 6 X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O 7 3 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]
black has lost one ko threat

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #56 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:15 pm 
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If we want to use the white stone on the right side, how about this?



oops... not quite 100 moves, but pretty close!

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #57 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:56 pm 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X , . . X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O , X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . 2 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


After :b21: we saw that this :w22: is losing.
What about the move below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X , . 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O , X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . . X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


and now if
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X , 3 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O , X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . 4 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]
and white has gained one point

and if
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O 8 X 5 4 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O 9 X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O 6 X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O 7 3 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]
black has lost one ko threat

In the second diagram, Black could remove the D4 ko threat before starting the ko fight, and also the indirect ko threat on G7 (assuming that W has set 28 to 29, which seems more efficient to me). This 2-point loss should be compensated by connecting G2.

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #58 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:30 pm 
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jmeinh wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X , . . X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O , X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . 2 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


After :b21: we saw that this :w22: is losing.
What about the move below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X , . 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O , X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . . X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


and now if
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X , 3 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O , X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . 4 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]
and white has gained one point

and if
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O 8 X 5 4 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O 9 X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O 6 X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O 7 3 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]
black has lost one ko threat

In the second diagram, Black could remove the D4 ko threat before starting the ko fight, and also the indirect ko threat on G7 (assuming that W has set 28 to 29, which seems more efficient to me). This 2-point loss should be compensated by connecting G2.


:w22: interesting move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O 8 X 6 4 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X 7 X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X 9 X O 5 X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . 3 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


both black and white lost 4 points and 1 ko threat. so black still win

or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O 6 X . 5 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X 9 . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X 7 X O 4 X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . 3 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


black lost 3 points and white lost 4 points. both lost 1 ko threat. so black still win

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #59 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:46 am 
Lives in sente

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dany wrote:
jmeinh wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X , . . X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O , X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . 2 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


After :b21: we saw that this :w22: is losing.
What about the move below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X , . 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O , X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . . X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


and now if
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X , 3 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O , X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . 4 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]
and white has gained one point

and if
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O 8 X 5 4 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X O 9 X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O 6 X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O 7 3 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]
black has lost one ko threat

In the second diagram, Black could remove the D4 ko threat before starting the ko fight, and also the indirect ko threat on G7 (assuming that W has set 28 to 29, which seems more efficient to me). This 2-point loss should be compensated by connecting G2.


:w22: interesting move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O 8 X 6 4 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X 7 X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X , . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X 9 X O 5 X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . 3 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


both black and white lost 4 points and 1 ko threat. so black still win

or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Komi = 0.5; prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . O X X X X . O . X X . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . O . X . O |
$$ | . . . . O X X X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O 6 X . 5 2 X X X O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X . X X |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . O . |
$$ | O O O O O X 9 . O X X X . |
$$ | X O X X O O X . . X O X X |
$$ | X X X . X O X . . X O O O |
$$ | . . X 7 X O 4 X X X O . X |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X O X . |
$$ | X X O X O . X O X O O O X |
$$ | . X O X O O . 3 X X O . 1 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


black lost 3 points and white lost 4 points. both lost 1 ko threat. so black still win

Very convincing explanation. Thank you Dany and Jmeinh

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 Post subject: Re: The most difficult yose problem
Post #60 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:25 am 
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jmeinh wrote:
If we want to use the white stone on the right side, how about this?



oops... not quite 100 moves, but pretty close!


White can reach 102 moves but by losing one point => black wins by 1.5 points in this variation:


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