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 Post subject: Re: Cards or app for miai-value based endgame practice?
Post #61 Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 12:24 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Area scoring: any drop, but exceptions would occur more easily in the 2 points and below range of move values.

OK let's try, as in territory scoring, a drop egal to 1/2.
I see how to build simple gote without follow-ups with the value 1, 2, 3, 4 ...
but how do you build simple gote without follow-ups with the value 0.5, 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, 4.5 ...?

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Post #62 Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 12:53 pm 
Judan

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If you want to represent it on the board for area scoring, multiples of 1 seem necessary while 1/2 is impossible. Do you see a necessiety for 1/2?

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Post #63 Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 1:53 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
If you want to represent it on the board for area scoring, multiples of 1 seem necessary while 1/2 is impossible. Do you see a necessiety for 1/2?

I agree with you, multiples of 1 is necessary.
BTW it was just a question for all those (like me) who use area scoring.
I am not against a drop equal to 1. I just note that the anomalies you mentionned earlier occur more easily when the value of the drop is higher.

So far my understanding is that, with different definitions, the miai value according to thermography or CGT and the move value according to your theory or according to mine seem identical (no counter example identified).

The main differences of the different approaches concern the use of an (ideal?) environment.

Basically, I use only one environment I qualify as a "sufficiently rich environment". The basic idea behind is the following.
Though no ko is introduced, this "sufficiently rich environment" is a kind of average of all realistic environments encounter in practice. Considering a local position, the idea is to put this local position into this environment and to identify at which temperature the players MUST play locally to reach the best result. That way if temperature corresponding to position P1 is higher that temperature corresponding to position P2 then I conclude that there is a good chance that you must play in position P1 before playing in position P2.
OC it may not be true in the real environment in which position P1 and P2 appear but anyway it is good indication for the player who can complement the analysis by a reading process.

I understand you calculate a move value without the need of an environment which is fine. Knowing that in a real game an environment is almost never an ideal environment (with your definition) I do not see what is the purpose of your ideal environment. Is it simply a pure theorical use (as example?) or do you propose to real players a new tool, as complement of the move value itself?

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 Post subject: Re: Cards or app for miai-value based endgame practice?
Post #64 Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 2:11 pm 
Judan

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The ideal environment is like an average of real positions. It enables theorems as exemplified before. We can also frequently apply such advice as approximation for the timing of non-simple local endgames.

You can divide the anomaly values by 10 and replace 5.3 by 5 1/3. I have constructed such examples, which are not exactly simple but almost so with a basic ko follow-up.

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 Post subject: Re: Cards or app for miai-value based endgame practice?
Post #65 Posted: Sun May 14, 2023 2:16 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
I do not use ideal environment to define count and move value! I need not. I define via tentative counts and tentative move values - gote or sente values being larger, equal or smaller. Local evaluation independent of environments! Environments for value definitions are overkill for practical application. Counter-examples (without kos) to the method of making a hypothesis are so hard to find that none is known on a go board so far.

Sure my definition of "move value" of a position uses explicitly what I called a "sufficiently rich environment" but it appears really that the calculation of this "move value" depends ONLY on the subtree of the position and not the environment itself!
IOW I completely agree with you that the local evaluation has better to be independent of environments.
The real difference between us is that you defined the "move value" by its calculation where I tried to define the "move value" by the need of go players (I mean a good tool to compare positions in the context of more or less representative environment).
Assume you choose "naïve move value" considering all nodes in the subtree as gote nodes (that way the recursive calculation is very simple OC). Obviously, it is a possible calculation and a possible definition for a "move value" but you will be right to say that this definition is unuseful and another calculation will be better. What does that mean? That means that you have really in mind some properties of the "move value" and if these properties are not fulfilled, you’re not happy with your calculation.
My question is the following: what are these properties you used to build your calculation?
For me these properties may be considered as the real definition and the calculation a consequence.

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 Post subject: Re: Cards or app for miai-value based endgame practice?
Post #66 Posted: Sun May 14, 2023 2:46 am 
Judan

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I am unsure what properties you are asking for other than those already mentioned.

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Post #67 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 3:23 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
I am unsure what properties you are asking for other than those already mentioned.

If you do not see properties other than those already mentioned, then it is good news isn't it? Let me remind you the two following ones:

1) Considering a "sufficiently rich environment" the "move value" of a position P is the temperature under which it is better to play locally
2) This “move value” depends only on the tree but not the environment itself.

OC, you recognize that properties 1 is my own definition of “move value”.
I understand your definition is the calculation itself (I do not know it because I saw only some examples) but I am pretty sure that the definitions are equivalent. I guess also that your “move value” is equivalent to the “miai value” used by Bill but here again I do not know. Did you ever proved this last point?

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 Post subject: Re: Cards or app for miai-value based endgame practice?
Post #68 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 6:05 am 
Judan

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For my move value, count and gains, 1 no and 2 yes.

CGT values also depend on infinitesimals so not necessarily equivalent to not considering them, as typically Bill has done and I do.

If we calculate mod inf (modulo infinitesimal), there surely will be many cases of same move value as miai value. However, I do not know if this is always so and I am far too cautious to predict either. My study of CGT reversal using difference games my traversal and Bill's / my method of comparing the opponent's branches for tree simplification has made me aware of the existence of pathological examples (which I do not recall by heart but see [22] for thermography versus traversal using my method of making a hypothesis) for these for which the three methods produce different values or behaviours. Not all we wish to be equivalent is.

Bill has used different tools, incl. miai value versus move value. For move value and count, he mentioned relations between different move values and the counts in a clause of a sentence as conjectures. I have proved them but he already applied them.

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Post #69 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 10:24 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
For my move value, count and gains, 1 no and 2 yes.

Oops, your answer is quite surprising. It will be an advantage if your "move value" had property 1 but you claim it is not the case!
I do not know your calculation (I am just guessing) but I can hardly believe your move value has not this property. Without any counter example I prefer to say that your move value has really this property.
BTW seeing you studied in detail the difference between your “move value” and Bill’s “miai value”, can you show us an example of position where the two values differ.

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 Post subject: Re: Cards or app for miai-value based endgame practice?
Post #70 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 10:52 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
seeing you studied in detail the difference between your “move value” and Bill’s “miai value”, can you show us an example of position where the two values differ.


Uh, it is not Bill’s “miai value”, which was introduced by Conway and reintroduced by Berlekamp and probably others. (I do not know Guy's contribution.)

I have not studied practical differences of move value and miai value carefully. Ad hoc, I only know of Francisco Criado's counter-examples for move value as for the method of making a hypothesis versus thermography.

Counter-example 1:

A = {B|-4}, B = {5|C,D}, C = {-2|-6}, D = {-1|-9} in a rich environment.

Counter-example 2:

P = {Q|-3}, Q = {8|R}, R = {S|-1}, S = {7|U}, U = {1|-3}.

For explanations why these are counter-examples, see [22].

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Post #71 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 1:12 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
seeing you studied in detail the difference between your “move value” and Bill’s “miai value”, can you show us an example of position where the two values differ.


Uh, it is not Bill’s “miai value”, which was introduced by Conway and reintroduced by Berlekamp and probably others. (I do not know Guy's contribution.)

I have not studied practical differences of move value and miai value carefully. Ad hoc, I only know of Francisco Criado's counter-examples for move value as for the method of making a hypothesis versus thermography.

Counter-example 1:

A = {B|-4}, B = {5|C,D}, C = {-2|-6}, D = {-1|-9} in a rich environment.

Counter-example 2:

P = {Q|-3}, Q = {8|R}, R = {S|-1}, S = {7|U}, U = {1|-3}.

For explanations why these are counter-examples, see [22].


As I already said the reference [22] is not accessible via this site, so I cannot access to the explanations.

Anyway let me try to analyze Counter-example 2:
Node U : count = -1 move value = 2
Node S : count = 3 move value = 4
Node R :
Black to move : as Go player I can see that the exchange RS – SU reverses => after RS – SU black must continue towards the score +1
White to move => score -1
Eventually node R : count = 0 move value = 1
Node Q: count = 4 move value = 4
Node P : black PQ – QS is sente => node P : count = 0 move value = 3
What is your “move value” and what is the “miai value” ?

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 Post subject: Re: Cards or app for miai-value based endgame practice?
Post #72 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 1:38 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Counter-example 1:

A = {B|-4}, B = {5|C,D}, C = {-2|-6}, D = {-1|-9} in a rich environment.

My analyze of counter example 1
Node D : count = -5 move value = 4
Node C : count = -4 move value = 2
Node B: count = 0 move value = 5
Node A:
Here as a go player I see that AB-BC as well as AB-BD reverses => black must continue after either of the sequences => white has better to choose AB-BC => black reach only the score -2 in gote
Finally node A : score = -3 move value = 1
Here again what is your “move value” and what is the “miai value” ?

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 Post subject: Re: Cards or app for miai-value based endgame practice?
Post #73 Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 1:57 pm 
Judan

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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
As I already said the reference [22] is not accessible via this site


It is always the same thread where you find these references:
Book References in Other Threads
https://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewt ... =17&t=8765

Quote:
Anyway let me try to analyze Counter-example 2:
[...]
Node R :
Black to move : as Go player I can see that the exchange RS – SU reverses => after RS – SU black must continue towards the score +1


The method of making a hypothesis does not use reversal but compares move value to gains in a long sequence. Here, it detects a 5-move traversal sequence but it is wrong.

Quote:
node P : count = 0 move value = 3


Correct but also for wrong reasons. You must not be even more naive than me by even disregarding the possibility of long sequences...! We need to apply thermography to justify these values!

Quote:
My analyze of counter example 1
[...]
Node B: count = 0 move value = 5
Node A:
Here as a go player I see that AB-BC as well as AB-BD reverses => black must continue after either of the sequences => white has better to choose AB-BC => black reach only the score -2 in gote
Finally node A : score = -3 move value = 1


You need to take into account the rich environment and enriched scores. Then start afresh for my method of making a hypothesis.

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 Post subject: Re: Cards or app for miai-value based endgame practice?
Post #74 Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 3:47 am 
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In your post https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=277835#p277835 you showed two counter examples for which you claim your "move values" are not equal to "miai values".
Just for your information, and without great details on my calculation, I gave you my own results for these two examples but that it is not, for the time being, the point.
Please can you complete your post by giving us your "move values" and the "miai values" for both examples?
That way the discussion on the different calculation methods would be far clearer. IOW I will then be able to give you the best answer to your previous post https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=277840#p277840

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 Post subject: Re: Cards or app for miai-value based endgame practice?
Post #75 Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 6:08 am 
Judan

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Counter-example 1:

The problem of the method making a hypothesis is that, at low temperature T = 1,5, both options C and D are fulfilled, for option C giving the initial count -3 and move value 1 but for option D giving the initial count -2,5 and move value 1,5. A contradiction arises, which does not arise for thermography and the initial count -3 and move value 1.

Counter-example 2:

Method of making a hypthesis: initial count -1 and move value 2 derived from a 5-move sequence.

Thermography: initial count 0 and move value 3. Note that my description of thermography speaks of move value and I dare to do so because I ignore infinitesimals. I suspect that miai values with infinitesimals might differ from move values, but I do not know examples.

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 Post subject: Re: Cards or app for miai-value based endgame practice?
Post #76 Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 7:17 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Counter-example 1:

The problem of the method making a hypothesis is that, at low temperature T = 1,5, both options C and D are fulfilled, for option C giving the initial count -3 and move value 1 but for option D giving the initial count -2,5 and move value 1,5. A contradiction arises, which does not arise for thermography and the initial count -3 and move value 1.

Counter-example 2:

Method of making a hypthesis: initial count -1 and move value 2 derived from a 5-move sequence.

Thermography: initial count 0 and move value 3. Note that my description of thermography speaks of move value and I dare to do so because I ignore infinitesimals. I suspect that miai values with infinitesimals might differ from move values, but I do not know examples.


Interesting information.
As expected my method leads to same result as miai value.
Example 1 : I understand you reached a contradiction with method making a hypothesis => an improvment of the method has to occur.
Example 2 : I understand that you found a 5-move sequence. If it were true then I would agree that initial count = -1 and move value = 2.
In my method as well as in thermography the result is initial count 0 and move value 3.
I think it is wrong to consider the 5-move sequence PQ-QR-RS-SU-UV (with V being the leave with the count +1). This 5-move sequence could exist if temperature were under 1 but this sequence does is not corret when temperature is greater than 1. OK for the sequence PQ-QR when temperature drops under 3 but the answer RS cannot be done if temperature is greater than 1. That is where your method probably failed.
Do you really think that RS can be played when temperature is greater than 1?

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 Post subject: Re: Cards or app for miai-value based endgame practice?
Post #77 Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 7:49 am 
Judan

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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
a contradiction with method making a hypothesis => an improvment of the method has to occur.


The improvement is thermography. The problem with the method making a hypothesis is that it can sometimes produce wrong values, although no such example on the board is known yet. The problem with thermography is that it is inapplicable in practice during a game. Both methods have their merits and limitations.

Quote:
In my method as well as in thermography


You speak about your method as if you applied it correctly but you do not calculate enriched scores and thermographs yet, as you should because your method is a sort of informal thermography.

Quote:
Do you really think that RS can be played when temperature is greater than 1?


This is not the question. The question is: if the start is at P, does play traverse to U?

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Post #78 Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 8:30 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Do you really think that RS can be played when temperature is greater than 1?

This is not the question. The question is: if the start is at P, does play traverse to U?

It is the question: you say that the “move value” of P is equal to 2 => you start at P with temperature higher than 1 => RS cannot be played at this temperature => the 5-move sequence cannot be correct at this temperature.

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Post #79 Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 8:52 am 
Judan

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You throw in temperature is a value to compare with, but then you must be specific: which temperature?

Bill and others compared the tentative initial move value to the follow-up move values but this was wrong, as my counter-example shows. I compare the tentative initial move value to the moves' gains, which is less but still wrong, as Francisco's thermography counter-examples show. I guess comparing the tentative initial move value to some temperatures will be better because it is non-infinitesimal thermography and might work as long as we do not consider infinitesimals. However, to apply that, we must use thermographic calculus (or graphs) - not just your wishful guessing.

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Post #80 Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 9:40 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Bill and others compared the tentative initial move value to the follow-up move values but this was wrong, as my counter-example shows.


Counter-example 2:
P = {Q|-3}, Q = {8|R}, R = {S|-1}, S = {7|U}, U = {1|-3}.

Your method gives as result initial count = -1 and move value = 2
My method as well as thermography give as result initial count = 0 and move value = 3

What criteria do you use to claim that the correct result is yours.
I understand that you found a 5-move sequence but this is wrong : in fact you have a 2-move sequence followed later by a 3-move sequence. You keep saying that your method is the best one, that I should use it (or maybe the thermography) and mine is surely wrong. Why instead you do not consider that other interesting ideas may exist? Why do you exclude that simpler methods may exist?
BTW, without knowing your method, I guess my method is nearer from yours than from thermography because I use also hypothesis. I use also reversal and I do not really understand why you decided to avoid the use of such powerful tool.

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