i think that black getting a handi actually makes it harder to win because when i have handi i have no idea what to do after white takes his/her turn so i always end up losing the game (most of the time it is a close game) and i was wondering what most people worry about when they have handi.

It doesn't make it harder to win. Occasionally you can psych yourself out, and play worse by being very passive, but that's the rare occasion. Kageyama has a nice example of that in Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go. An amateur tells K that he will definitely win if K gives him 9 stones, then plays too defensively and loses.

In general, you decide how to play in a handicap game the same way you do in an ordinary game. Look for weak groups. Try to read the best move to make your groups strong and your opponent's group weaker (or dead). If your groups are all stable, and you can't find a good way to pressure your opponent, play something that makes points.

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Occupy Babel!

And Kageyama's handicap Go book is, in my opinion, really excellent

if you lose with handycap there is no way you will play even game and win.
take a handycap that will make you win sometime and try to make it all the time.

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

I used to be psyched out in high-handicap games, not knowing how to use my stones. I suppose I was kind of treating them like weak groups, and thinking "Now I have to take care of more groups!" This made me feel like I was weaker with handicap stones.

But then I realized, at the very worst, I can treat them like they are not there. I shouldn't be feeling hindered by them. Once I realized this, I was able to use them much more effectively. They're not weak groups that need baby-sitting; they're strong towers that give you a large edge in combat anywhere near them.

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We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

The black side of a handicap game is hard because your opponent is better than you.

If you don't know how to use your handicap stones, I guess this means you don't understand influence yet. Are you a territorial player, by any chance ?

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Heretix [24k]: Anyone care to give a little bit of commentary, this game is confusing...
mattn [1d]: commentary: "oh my god"
tartrate vs. redrose game

That's not true. I for one play better without a handicap, and I have seen 4d on kgs playing handicap games for fun between themselves, 5 stones against another 4d, and sometimes, black win. 5 stones or less are the worst to me when I have black, and 6 stones or more are the worst to me when I have white.

i dont know where you get this idea that no handycap has better odd of winning than handycap game.
if you are 1d strength then i might give you 3 stone handy. but on a even game you dont have any chance to win if i play seriously.

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

That may be the case for an even game Magicwand, but I think you would still have a good chance of winning against me at 4 or 5 stones, even if in theory, you should give me only 3. You would also notice a change of strength if I played you evenly, than if I played at 3 stones, even if you would win. That was what I wanted to say. Evenly, I play at 1d or so level, but in an handicap game, my game could be more 1k-2k ish. There are more than one reasons for this. First of all, I start ahead, so it's hard to play normally. I will try to avoid fighting, because it's not to my advantage, given that I'm ahead. However, that is also a bad thing, because my opponent will also seek to fight, and will try to make the situation more complex. In a complex situation, no matter the handicap, the stronger player is at an advantage because of his experience and reading ability.

For example, you could overplay and go unpunished. You would be more tempted to overplay too, because you're behind, because of the handicap. It's not just that I play more actively in an even game, but my opponent will not play as many overplays than in an handicap game. In contrary is also true. Some player are more tempted to attack when they have more stones (the handicap), but often they will overplay. And then, the stronger player can see the overplay, and take advantage of it.

An handicap game is not the same as an even game, because player play differently than in an even game. To me, it's why I can't play at my fullest, because my style is hard to apply in an handicap game.

I can think of a couple reasons why some people might feel their play is weaker (or might actually play weaker) during a handicap game.

- It is much harder to evaluate novel positions compared to familiar positions.

Especially when a player's judgment of opening positions is largely rooted in a stronger player having already evaluated the familiar shapes (I know this is a joseki it must be ok for me! or I have heard that X gives B bad shape, so I won't play X), instead of doing their own evaluation. A handicap game is much more likely to include (or even force) shapes that don't come up in a "regular" game for the player, so they may feel less comfortable having to choose a reasonable variation. It also removes much of the opportunity to use joseki memory maintain equality through early parts of the game. Likewise, in those familiar positions they will know what are good follow-ups, as opposed to having to figure out good follow-ups in the novel setting. I guess the extreme version of this exercise would be to have a random move generator play something like 10 stones for each side, then have a player pick the side they feel is better (or have two people play out the game).


-It's easy to see losing an advantage, but hard to see falling further behind

If you have a handicap, you know you start with an advantage, and as the stronger player catches up, it is easy to see it disappear. If you start equal, you may start to feel when you are falling behind, but it may not be as obvious, and quantifying it is not as easy. You may go from being behind 10 points to being behind 20 points, and not really notice (it could be giving your opponent a large endgame move in sente), but if you go from having 2 extra stones on the board to equality, you will feel your lead slipping. This may stem from the fact that psychologically we are more aware of losing things we already have than we are of not getting things we could have potentially earned (risk aversion).

- White typically doesn't play to maximize score differential.

In an even game the stronger player may establish a reasonable lead early on and play a risk minimizing strategy for much of the game (setting it on cruise control). It may feel like a very close game, but in actuality, white had the upperhand for most of the game and just spent the rest of the time locking it down. From B's perspective it's quite difficult to tell the difference between "The hardest move I could play trying to get as many points as possible" vs. "The move that would be big enough for me to continue leveraging an advantage, while leaving less counterplay." In a handicap game, it will take a longer time for white to reach equality, so white will be playing tougher moves for a longer span, and taking more risks for more of the game (if not all of the game). You might play 2 games with someone 5 stones stronger, one even and one at H3, and think that because you lost them both by 15 points you played much better in the first game. In actuality it might just be that the stronger person coasts after they feel a 15 point lead is established...in fact you might end up losing the handicap game by significantly more points because the stronger player was forced to make more "high risk-high reward" plays and overcompensated for the handicap.

Of course much of this has a root cause in what cdybeijing said:

I think this is what can make playing a handicap game easier if played with the right mindset.
More handicap stones means a higher chance of high risk-high reward plays by the stronger player.

Find those weak points, and the game is over. Of course, the game won't actually be over, since a 20 point gap can often be closed in the endgame.

Just don't let it get to the endgame Easier said than done, right?

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If you are really stronger in even games, why not just play the game as if the handicap stones were not on the board? Short of a shortage of liberties, which is highly unlikely, they can't actually hurt you if you play like they're not there.

Interesting idea! I think it might make some stuff look a bit weird... But for example Shusaku-style fuseki is still possible:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Normal joseki is still possible
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My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

When in doubt, play the most aggressive move

Indeed, much like the handicap game is tough on black because white is stronger...it is tough on white because black has those extra stones (=

Any normally equal exchange favors black. It is white's obligation to make something happen if black plays a tight game. The point about endgame is a good one...this is a bit of speculation on my part, but I would say in a well-played game for both sides (e.g. B doesn't let something big die), white will probably need to make up about 30-50% of the handicap in endgame (so if it's a 3 stone game, 10-15 points, 6 stone game, 20-30pts), if not more. I guess it makes sense if you figure endgame might be 125 moves of a 250 move game.

While playing normally as black might be possible, it could be harder to convince white to act like the stones aren't there (=

Mef is right, it's tough on both, but in different ways.

I like white and handi because I feel like bluffing my way through a high-risk game - which actually makes me focus on playing best-fitting moves.

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Yunzi makes the world go round, the world go round...