It is currently Sat Mar 30, 2024 12:00 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: SGF files for Invincible
Post #1 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:24 pm 
Dies with sente
User avatar

Posts: 109
Location: Arizona, United States
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 3
Rank: 2k Kaya
IGS: Exologist
Kaya handle: Exologist
Invincible is one of the books I really want to delve into (I have 2 books I need to get through first, but as soon as those are done!). Many months back I tried to read through the book before, but it was rather unsatisfying trying to sift through the kifu to see what the commentary was saying about the game and where the variations came into play. I searched for SGF files of the games to make it easy but couldn't find anything. So I took a bunch of time to make SGF files out of the games myself.

SGF files are only the games. None of the commentary and none of the variations. My goal isn't to distribute Incvincible, but to make it easier to read through.

http://www.tucsongo.org/2012/02/invincible-sgf-pack/

_________________
TucsonGo.org - Play Go in Tucson
We meet twice a week, visit us!


This post by Exologist was liked by 3 people: Darrell, imabuddha, shapenaji
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #2 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:30 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 932
Location: New York, NY
Liked others: 146
Was liked: 150
Rank: KGS 1k
Universal go server handle: judicata
Nice. All of the games are also in GoGoD (and many other databases)--I also like to follow along that way, and it is easier to use an sgf even when you're placing stones on a real board.

EDIT: A quick comment on your blog entry--I would say that Shusaku is inarguably one of the greatest go players of all time, and is arguably the greatest go player of all time (not that he is arguably one of them). :)


This post by judicata was liked by: imabuddha
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #3 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:39 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 255
Location: Miyazaki, Japan
Liked others: 351
Was liked: 66
Shusaku fans who have an iPad (or other iOS device) will have a new way to enjoy these games soon…

:white: :study: :black:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #4 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:18 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 655
Location: Czechia
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 41
Rank: 1d KGS
KGS: Laman
judicata wrote:
Nice. All of the games are also in GoGoD (and many other databases)--I also like to follow along that way, and it is easier to use an sgf even when you're placing stones on a real board.

EDIT: A quick comment on your blog entry--I would say that Shusaku is inarguably one of the greatest go players of all time, and is arguably the greatest go player of all time (not that he is arguably one of them). :)

i would add that Shusaku is arguably one of the most overestimated players of all time

or, to be fair, his strength is hard to evaluate because he died young and thus had played majority of his games with an advantage of having black (being under-ranked). if he had lived longer, he could have proved his superiority better

_________________
Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #5 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:18 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 160
Liked others: 15
Was liked: 11
Rank: KGS 2k
KGS: blade90
Laman wrote:
i would add that Shusaku is arguably one of the most overestimated players of all time

or, to be fair, his strength is hard to evaluate because he died young and thus had played majority of his games with an advantage of having black (being under-ranked). if he had lived longer, he could have proved his superiority better

Overestimated? Maybe, but not because he won more games thenthe others.
It's because of his playing style, almost all japanese professionals have studied his games because of that style and not because he won games.

You should know that winning is not the only way to display strenght ;-)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #6 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:41 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1103
Location: Netherlands
Liked others: 408
Was liked: 422
Rank: EGF 4d
GD Posts: 952
Laman wrote:
judicata wrote:
Nice. All of the games are also in GoGoD (and many other databases)--I also like to follow along that way, and it is easier to use an sgf even when you're placing stones on a real board.

EDIT: A quick comment on your blog entry--I would say that Shusaku is inarguably one of the greatest go players of all time, and is arguably the greatest go player of all time (not that he is arguably one of them). :)

i would add that Shusaku is arguably one of the most overestimated players of all time

or, to be fair, his strength is hard to evaluate because he died young and thus had played majority of his games with an advantage of having black (being under-ranked). if he had lived longer, he could have proved his superiority better


I don't think he's overestimated, I think he just suffers from an overabundance of publicity. Pros agree that he's among the strongest along with Go Seigen/Huang Longshi/Dosaku/Lee Changho.

And he really had quite a lot of games. (The Jubangos with Ota Yuzo obviously). It's not just the 20 or so Castle games...

_________________
Tactics yes, Tact no...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #7 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:56 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 932
Location: New York, NY
Liked others: 146
Was liked: 150
Rank: KGS 1k
Universal go server handle: judicata
Laman wrote:
judicata wrote:
Nice. All of the games are also in GoGoD (and many other databases)--I also like to follow along that way, and it is easier to use an sgf even when you're placing stones on a real board.

EDIT: A quick comment on your blog entry--I would say that Shusaku is inarguably one of the greatest go players of all time, and is arguably the greatest go player of all time (not that he is arguably one of them). :)

i would add that Shusaku is arguably one of the most overestimated players of all time

or, to be fair, his strength is hard to evaluate because he died young and thus had played majority of his games with an advantage of having black (being under-ranked). if he had lived longer, he could have proved his superiority better


Is your argument that, because his strength is hard to evaluate, it must be overestimated? There is something missing from this syllogism.

Many people would disagree that his strength is difficult to evaluate. Could Shusaku have beaten Lee Changho 10 years ago if he came back from the dead? Perhaps not. I would even accept "probably not." But could have beaten Lee Changho if he had been born in 1980 and been exposed to modern go theory and teachings? Maybe, maybe not, but then it wouldn't really be Shusaku would it? Someone can only be evaluated in his/her own time.

My point still stands. Aside from a few naysayers (many of whom disagree for the sake of it), it is a given that he is among the greatest of all time.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #8 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:20 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 325
Location: The shores of sunny Clapham
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 283
GD Posts: 484
Unfortunately for you, the "few" nay-sayers include many of the top professionals of the last hundred years, most of whom would post Shuei as higher. Personally, I would choose Go Seigen as the greatest.

Best wishes.

_________________
No aji, keshi, kifu or kikashi has been harmed in the compiling of this post.
http://www.gogod.co.uk

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #9 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:26 am 
Tengen

Posts: 4380
Location: North Carolina
Liked others: 499
Was liked: 733
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
shapenaji wrote:
I don't think he's overestimated, I think he just suffers from an overabundance of publicity. Pros agree that he's among the strongest along with Go Seigen/Huang Longshi/Dosaku/Lee Changho.
Better list Shuei, since you have professionals on record saying he was better than Shusaku. Oh, and what ever happened to the whole Jowa/Shusaku comparison?

If you're saying that Shusaku is near the very top, you'll have no argument from me. But exactly where he falls relative to the others is quite tough.

Scooped by TMark.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #10 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:39 pm 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 269
Location: Seattle
Liked others: 127
Was liked: 123
Rank: AGA 12k
GD Posts: 292
KGS: RedBeard
DGS: Akahige
Ah, but if Shusaku knew modern joseki.... :roll:


This post by Redbeard was liked by: hyperpape
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #11 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:49 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1625
Liked others: 542
Was liked: 450
Rank: senior player
GD Posts: 1000
About how many people could we say "one of the strongest of all time"? I think there have been several 20th century players who, in their prime could compete with Shusaku in his prime. Are we safe in saying Shusaku was one of the top 25? I'm not completely sure even about that.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #12 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:51 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 932
Location: New York, NY
Liked others: 146
Was liked: 150
Rank: KGS 1k
Universal go server handle: judicata
TMark wrote:
Unfortunately for you, the "few" nay-sayers include many of the top professionals of the last hundred years, most of whom would post Shuei as higher. Personally, I would choose Go Seigen as the greatest.

Best wishes.


I appreciate the insight, and that is indeed somewhat unfortunate for my position :). But do many top pros not consider Shusaku among the greatest? And if so, don't most consider him among the greatest. I'm not arguing Shusaku was the greatest--I have no idea. Because Go Seigen seems to have more intercultural recognition (correct me if I'm wrong here--I admit I'm out of my element), I would just as readily accept him as the greatest.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #13 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:17 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 801
Location: Amsterdam (NL)
Liked others: 353
Was liked: 107
Rank: KGS 7 kyu forever
GD Posts: 460
Exologist wrote:
........ None of the commentary and none of the variations. My goal isn't to distribute Incvincible, but to make it easier to read through.

http://www.tucsongo.org/2012/02/invincible-sgf-pack/


I sgf'ed some games, comments included. I am willing to exchange on the condition you also own the book. See here

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #14 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:49 pm 
Tengen

Posts: 4380
Location: North Carolina
Liked others: 499
Was liked: 733
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
So are we all going to end this thread by posing in front of a mirror with a copy of invincible in one hand, and a paper reading "L19x19, Feb 28th 2012" in the other, so everyone knows that we really own the book?

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #15 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:32 pm 
Dies with sente
User avatar

Posts: 109
Location: Arizona, United States
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 3
Rank: 2k Kaya
IGS: Exologist
Kaya handle: Exologist
So my article stands or doesn't stand? Oh, the debating humanity!

Yeah, I don't have nearly enough time to write down all the comments and put in the variations even if I wanted to bother getting permission. It is what it is.

_________________
TucsonGo.org - Play Go in Tucson
We meet twice a week, visit us!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #16 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:20 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 558
Location: Carlisle, England
Liked others: 196
Was liked: 342
IGS: Reisei 1d
Online playing schedule: When I can
Instead of trying to prove or disprove the untestable, let's just say that Shusaku was a truly tremendous player from whom you can really learn a great deal. Does it matter all that much which pro or go saint you study? You can learn from them all.

_________________
Learn the "tea-stealing" tesuji! Cho Chikun demonstrates here:


This post by Tami was liked by: illluck
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #17 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:23 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 852
Location: Central Coast
Liked others: 201
Was liked: 333
Rank: KGS [-]
GD Posts: 428
shapenaji wrote:
Laman wrote:
judicata wrote:
Nice. All of the games are also in GoGoD (and many other databases)--I also like to follow along that way, and it is easier to use an sgf even when you're placing stones on a real board.

EDIT: A quick comment on your blog entry--I would say that Shusaku is inarguably one of the greatest go players of all time, and is arguably the greatest go player of all time (not that he is arguably one of them). :)

i would add that Shusaku is arguably one of the most overestimated players of all time

or, to be fair, his strength is hard to evaluate because he died young and thus had played majority of his games with an advantage of having black (being under-ranked). if he had lived longer, he could have proved his superiority better


I don't think he's overestimated, I think he just suffers from an overabundance of publicity. Pros agree that he's among the strongest along with Go Seigen/Huang Longshi/Dosaku/Lee Changho.

And he really had quite a lot of games. (The Jubangos with Ota Yuzo obviously). It's not just the 20 or so Castle games...



Shusaku's memory seems to benefit from (suffer from?) a Buddy Holly-esque career, where due to a premature death no one is quite sure where he would peak. We have the benefit of seeing the young challenger rapidly rising, but have no aging master stage to really give him a thorough vetting, where he is the one the new generation is challenging. For a thought experiment -- What would we think of Lee ChangHo if something happened and his career was ended in the late 1990s? Or Cho Chikun in the Early 80's? We would only be left to speculate what heights they may be able to attain.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #18 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:59 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 932
Location: New York, NY
Liked others: 146
Was liked: 150
Rank: KGS 1k
Universal go server handle: judicata
Tami wrote:
Instead of trying to prove or disprove the untestable, let's just say that Shusaku was a truly tremendous player from whom you can really learn a great deal. Does it matter all that much which pro or go saint you study? You can learn from them all.


I sympathize, but virtually all debates can be reduced to "what you're talking about isn't really important." And it isn't terribly unhealthy for most people, so long as it doesn't get heated or personal.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #19 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:16 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 932
Location: New York, NY
Liked others: 146
Was liked: 150
Rank: KGS 1k
Universal go server handle: judicata
Mef wrote:
Shusaku's memory seems to benefit from (suffer from?) a Buddy Holly-esque career, where due to a premature death no one is quite sure where he would peak. We have the benefit of seeing the young challenger rapidly rising, but have no aging master stage to really give him a thorough vetting, where he is the one the new generation is challenging. For a thought experiment -- What would we think of Lee ChangHo if something happened and his career was ended in the late 1990s? Or Cho Chikun in the Early 80's? We would only be left to speculate what heights they may be able to attain.


Interesting trying to determine what "greatness" is. I happen to be a fan of Buddy Holly, who was quite prolific for his unfortunately short career. Did he write the greatest songs ever? Of course, such a thing is subjective, but let's say he didn't. But his "greatness" is found in the many artists who have cited him as a significant influence: Bob Dylan, Elton John, Keith Richards, Bruce Springsteen, and even The Beatles.

Go is a bit more objective (people can actually win games), but it would be impossible to determine even assuming Shusaku had been born 100 years later. So if Buddy Holly would have been born in 1970, how great would he have been? To level the playing field, he would have to have access to the same influences as others have had...including Buddy Holly :). So how great would Shusaku have been had he been born later, and been able to reflect on the teachings of Shusaku and Go Seigen?

Of course this whole exercise is impossible. My comment was only intended to reflect how go players view Shusaku, which I previously believed to be unquestionably among the greatest. But apparently I was wrong.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: SGF files for Invincible
Post #20 Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:59 am 
Dies with sente
User avatar

Posts: 109
Location: Arizona, United States
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 3
Rank: 2k Kaya
IGS: Exologist
Kaya handle: Exologist
Balance wrote:
But still, isn't the choice of those 80 games and their numbering something that is covered by the copyright of the book?
Are we sure that Exologist isn't a thief, or at least very immoral?
Is L19 perhaps in violation of the law simply by allowing the linking to the download?

So if I randomly numbered them and added a couple more games in there it would be moral?

Or I could remove the players and dates and just have strait SGFs where I could say it was only by pure chance that the 80 SGF files I made happened to be exactly the same as the ones in Invincible. (Unobjectionable story!)

_________________
TucsonGo.org - Play Go in Tucson
We meet twice a week, visit us!

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group