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 Post subject: Yosu-Miru
Post #1 Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:44 pm 
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So reading up on this concept, it seems to be a move like a probe, to test the opponents response or to force them to make a shape before they want to, as in too early on, so that you can plan better and invade/reduce better.

Is this what it is? Anyone have any comments on this?

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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #2 Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:43 pm 
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NoSkill wrote:
So reading up on this concept, it seems to be a move like a probe, to test the opponents response or to force them to make a shape before they want to, as in too early on, so that you can plan better and invade/reduce better.

Is this what it is? Anyone have any comments on this?


That's about right. Essentially it is used when two or more lines of play are available and there is no clear difference between them. Or maybe neither of them work quite right.

A yosu-miru is a play that forces the opponent to make a choice between his own options so that you can then use the line of play that works best once the position is settled in that way.

A good example is here.

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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #3 Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:55 am 
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Are there any professionals that were known especially for their probes? I would like to research these types of plays more.

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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #4 Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:10 pm 
Judan

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There are several chapters about probes in the opening in that Korean style fuseki dictionary (e.g. 21, 53, 57).

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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #5 Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:58 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
There are several chapters about probes in the opening in that Korean style fuseki dictionary (e.g. 21, 53, 57).


Right but im not sure those count as yosu-miru or exactly what yosu-miru is. Ive heard some people simply call it probe, but I think it can mean a bit more as strategic concepts of go explains. I read that book, but wonder about more examples to go with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #6 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Jürgen Mattern multi-time European and even more often German champion wrote a book (in German) which is 1/3 about yosu-miru (he even calls it like that, not probe or asking move). The other chapters are about kikashi and sabaki and the common theme through the book is timing. It is one of the few books in my library that talks about it at all. (And it is one of the rare examples of high level material produced by westerners.) Hebsacker had it at a reduced price some time ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #7 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:37 pm 
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NoSkill wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
There are several chapters about probes in the opening in that Korean style fuseki dictionary (e.g. 21, 53, 57).


Right but im not sure those count as yosu-miru or exactly what yosu-miru is. Ive heard some people simply call it probe, but I think it can mean a bit more as strategic concepts of go explains. I read that book, but wonder about more examples to go with it.


It's difficult at a lower level to define yosu-miru. It's closely related to kikashi, but is very different. I read through the SL page I posted earlier and I have to say it isn't as helpful as I had thought. ;-)

So let's contrast yosu-miru to kikashi.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Is this, like, a probe or something?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . b 1 b . .
$$ | . . O a O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


Here :b1: might look like kikashi, but while a is the normal choice here, b or c might be appropriate if either the top side or the corner are most valuable in the situation. :b1: in this case is not really kikashi, because kikashi is more or less defined as a move which forces a response which is favorable, immediately or as part of a sequence, to the player forcing the response. Here White could frustrate Black's plans with b or c. Were :b1: not present, White would have many other follow-ups from his two-stone enclosure.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Favorable?!?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . .
$$ | . . O 2 O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


Even the normal response is nothing to celebrate about for Black, who now has a single stone pressed against a flawless White wall. However, this forces White to fix his shape into a wall. This is where a Go player's ingenuity comes in.

Let's see game 5 of the 2012 Honinbo title match:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Even Iyama Yuta connects against a peep.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X B X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . X . e . a O d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I could explain, but this comment from the marked stone move by An Younggil 8p will be a lot more concise:

"This is the most solid answer for protecting black's right side position, but as you'll see, white can now play to live in the corner later.

Instead of 33, if black plays A, white gains sente moves like B and C, so it would be easier for white to invade the right side. And if black plays 33 at D, white can aim at moves like E later."


White, having 'forced' Black into a fixed position, went on to play :w1: , a choice he made in light of Black's strengthened position on the side. This wasn't a loss, however, as White went on to reduce with little danger Black's primary area and then, as Younggil commented, chose a beautiful time to play to live in the corner.

Of course being a top pro, White chose not to play the sequence out completely, but use the potential of the white group in the bottom-right to force black to fight with the sequence in mind, cramping his play slightly throughout the board and thus gaining the advantage.

He then went on to make a simple life & death mistake and lose. But hey, we're all human. Pros are just less so than we amateurs are. :D

The idea here is that White, had he not been forced, could have handled the situation much more flexibly by doing what he wished with his corner stones. As such, he had a wall and that was that.

I hope this helps at least a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #8 Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:28 am 
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I'm not seeing the difference between this and what I understand is meant by "probe".

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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #9 Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:41 am 
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NoSkill wrote:
So reading up on this concept, it seems to be a move like a probe, to test the opponents response or to force them to make a shape before they want to, as in too early on, so that you can plan better and invade/reduce better.

Is this what it is? Anyone have any comments on this?


Yosu miru is an Englishized version of yousu miru (様子 見る), a term from ordinary everyday Japanese which means "see what the state of things is". No doubt it was used by go players with the same meaning and thus became a go term. "Probe" was chosen by translators as an English equivalent and perhaps fails to capture all the Japanese meaning. "Asking move" seems pretty good to me but I think it isn't very natural English. Maybe it is more Japanese than you want (need?) to know but yousu (様子) means " the state of affairs, things, circumstances" and miru (見る) is the ordinary verb "to see", among other related meanings.


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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #10 Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:44 am 
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I am not aware of more Go meaning of yosumiru beyond probe. If you are interested in the Japanese language look at http://senseis.xmp.net/?YosumiVsYosumiru. If you are interested in Go then look at pro games, reviews, books etc as there will be examples and explanations of probes in them, though I am not aware of a consolidated "big book of probes". There is "Beyond Forcing Moves" which is a very nice book on kikashi and timing with a slight bit or probing (you can see my post about it here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5150).

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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #11 Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:49 am 
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SmoothOper wrote:
I would like to research these types of plays more.


Joseki 1 Fundamentals classifies the move type "test" as a subtype of "creating possibilities". So, if you want to do research, you could search for

- a finer classification of test moves,
- a more complete classification of creating possibilities moves,
- aspects of eliminating possibilities when a test move is played,
- strategic aims related to (particular subtypes of) test moves,
- positional contexts for playing (particular subtypes of) test moves.

Another book with a chapter on the topic is Strategic Concepts of Go.

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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #12 Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:27 am 
Oza

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For the historical aspects of probes, which are relatively recent in pro play, see the Commented Games of Shuei.

I personally see no difference between probe and yousu miru in practical terms.

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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #13 Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:37 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
For the historical aspects of probes, which are relatively recent in pro play, see the Commented Games of Shuei.

I personally see no difference between probe and yousu miru in practical terms.


I feel that the difference lay in the presuppositions behind the words.

In English a 'probe' is essentially a test. "If I do this, what happens?"

Yosu-miru as defined in this thread seems to have an element of follow-up. "Let's see the state of affairs and then I will play accordingly."

Of course in Go there's no point to a probe without a follow-up, but the Japanese term seems to assume a continuation after the response. It's a bit unfair that they combine two words together to get there though. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #14 Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:36 am 
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I see nothing in Japanese that assumes an immediate follow-up. It might be worth recalling that it's not really a technical term, but just part of the everyday vernacular. I just read something about baseball this morning where a coach used it in the sense of "We'll see what happens", and it can also be used of doing a medical diagnosis - the follow-up there may be long distant. Because it is not a technical term, you can use it how you like, really.

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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #15 Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:36 am 
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I see nothing in Japanese that assumes an immediate follow-up. It might be worth recalling that it's not really a technical term, but just part of the everyday vernacular. I just read something about baseball this morning where a coach used it in the sense of "We'll see what happens", and it can also be used of doing a medical diagnosis - the follow-up there may be long distant. Because it is not a technical term, you can use it how you like, really.

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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #16 Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:54 am 
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Hi,

I will try to explain what I understood, I'm not a master... Please try to follow it on the diagram at http://senseis.xmp.net/?Probe (section "Another example")

In many situations (especially when in a corner are only black stones or only white stones - let's call the player in that corner the Defender), the Attacker is, obviously, at a disadvantage. Any line of play he chooses (like invading the side, trying to live in the corner etc), the Defender will have some powerful moves which will have multiple purposes, like defending the corner while pressing the opponent's stones. These multiple-purpose moves exists in ALL lines of play.

Let's call the Attacker's yosu-miru move Y.

Now, after Y, the Attacker can choose a line of play where R doesn't have a multi-purpose value. Maybe it's just a move which defends the corner (without attacking Attacker's stones), or maybe it's just a move which presses the Attacker's stones (without protecting the corner).

More technically, I guess it's a matter of destroying Defender's potential.


Let's assume now the following starting situation:
- if Attacker plays A1, the Defender responds with D1, a double-purpose move
- if Attacker plays A2, the Defender responds with D2, a double-purpose move

Both lines of play are not so good, so the Attacker plays the yosu-miru move Y. Let's assume that the Defender has 2 possible responds, R1 and R2.
- if Defender plays R1, the attacker can play A1, and D1 is no longer a double-purpose move
- if Defender plays R2, the attacker can play A2, and D2 is no longer a double-purpose move

Don't take it too seriously, as I'm not a strong player... :)


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 Post subject: Re: Yosu-Miru
Post #17 Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:12 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
...


Another book with a chapter on the topic is Strategic Concepts of Go.[/quote]

I can support this claim, it has a chapter on yosu-miru, but the examples are only limited to probing the 3-4 3-5 enclosure. The problems contain some more extensive usages of yosu-miru.

A move is yosu-miru if it forces the opponent to settle his shape in one way or the other, allowing you to decide on your strategy with the newly gained information. Like Gowan I like
the translation 'Asking move'.


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