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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #121 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:11 am 
Gosei
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Uberdude wrote:
Oza game 1 vs Ichiriki is underway. Iyama played an AlphaGo style 3-3 on move 5 which I don't recall seeing him do before. It was a diagonal game though so less chance for a moyo from the resulting wall.

Iyama won by resign.

Actually Tengen game 1. Sorry there was an error in the schedule I posted earlier.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #122 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:43 am 
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Something interesting happened with the ladder after the AlphaGo 3-3 joseki, my feeling was Ichiriki got a bad result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Tengen game 1: Iyama Yuta (black) vs Ichiriki Ryo
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . b O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . c X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


When Iyama approached at :b1: I thought Ichiriki should probably fix the ladder, either with fancy AG-style a which has more influence to centre and sides but still leaves some peeps and cut aji at b, or just take the stone off old-fashioned honte style at c so that cut disappear (still clamp/peep though). This would allow black to double approach the top left, but AG perhaps hints at us that this is not so severe as we thought. In the first game with Ke Jie AlphaGo fixed the ladder even before it was broken (but there wasn't anything as hot as an approach there). Instead Ichiriki pincered to temporarily keep the ladder good, and Iyama played to resurrect the ladder threat and then pulled the stone out.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Game continuation
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 9 X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This was sente for more important things at the lower right, so white couldn't even display fighting spirit and try to punish black from tenuki-ing at the top left (which would be how anyway?). So Ichiriki ended up crawling on the 2nd line 6 times, maybe not as awful as it sounds seeing as AlphaGo did something similar vs Park Junghwan, but come on, it looks so rubbish!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Game continuation
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 8 6 4 2 O O X X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 7 5 3 O X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Chooooo chooo train
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 1 X X X X O O X X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 2 O O O O O X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by 3 people: Bill Spight, jeromie, Ortho
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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #123 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:08 am 
Judan

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Uberdude wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Game continuation
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 9 X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This was sente for more important things at the lower right, so white couldn't even display fighting spirit and try to punish black from tenuki-ing at the top left (which would be how anyway?). So Ichiriki ended up crawling on the 2nd line 6 times, maybe not as awful as it sounds seeing as AlphaGo did something similar vs Park Junghwan, but come on, it looks so rubbish!


wineandgolover wrote:
AlphaGo- Whatever You Do Is Wrong

:mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #124 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:40 am 
Oza
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Twitter from Kibe Natsuki with simpler analysis of same position. :)

https://twitter.com/wakatekishi_igo/sta ... 8823098369


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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #125 Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:14 am 
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Mr baduk1 said he will do a video review of this game with Blackie 9p. His channel is https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfmbgD ... 676AIzJgYQ.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #126 Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:08 am 
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I watched their review. One comment during the upper right hand corner: "if I didn't know this was the Tengen match, I wouldn't think this is a Japanese game".

I couldn't tell what they thought of the pincer. They considered playing the AlphaGo ladder breaker and allowing the double approach, but I wasn't sure if they thought it was definitely better.

They thought Ichiriki should have left off the final crawl on the second line in favor of a knights move approach to the LL 44 stone. They also criticized the attachment in the lower center that was immediately ataried. Kim's response was immediate and strong, like he could see nothing that favored that move. I wonder what Ichiriki's reasoning was. They called the atari on the two stones in the lower right center the losing move.

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Post #127 Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:20 am 
Tengen

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Today is first day of Meijin title match 5th game vs Takao Shinji. Iyama is 3-1 up so if he wins he retakes the title to recomplete his perfect seven.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #128 Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:47 am 
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Yeah, high Chinese by black (Iyama)! :D

I was a bit surprised by the sequence in the upper left (starting with :b13:) . At first, Black seems to have created a pretty weak group but now it seems that he managed to play on both the upper and the left side. On the other hand, it seems white can look forward to getting sente, having played 56 and harassing the black stones in the center. But the lower side doesn't look too good after black 49/55 and he may have problems of his own in the center...

The game so far


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Post #129 Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:19 am 
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As expected, Nico server is too crowded for free user like me, but I manage to sneak in
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That look like a delicious Japanese melon!
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Now Zen can even show a variation?


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 Post subject: Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Post #130 Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:14 am 
Tengen

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Btw, black 7 being low rather than high still feels a little weird to me, but iirc it's an idea Gu Li came up with a few years ago. I think the idea is with high it's quite easy for white to invade the right side later, but with low it's not so easy. The downside is there's less pressure on the approach stone, but white will probably extend anyway, and the cap is less of a future aim as thinner. The black high chinese stone does end up a little oddly placed (you wouldn't usually play so close to that side of the shimari so early in the opening), but also white's approach ends up a bit odd too.

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Post #131 Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:54 pm 
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Online playing schedule: A schedule..? When hell freezes over... maybe. ^^;
Very entertaining game so far! And it reminds me quite a bit of the recent crazy (and so far at least equally fun) game between Shibano Toramaru 7p and Cho Chikun 9p that I happened to replay yesterday evening. Although I do hope that this time black wins - but I think it's looking good for black even though he sacrificed so many stones. Go, Iyama! :)

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Post #132 Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:02 pm 
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Situation right now
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Takao keep mumbling something to himself all the time

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Post #133 Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:20 pm 
Dies with sente

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Wouahhh ,where can I see it live ?

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Post #134 Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:32 pm 
Dies with sente

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lichigo wrote:
Wouahhh ,where can I see it live ?


http://www.nicovideo.jp/

About 10 moves later (after move 104) the roles reversed: Takao is relaxed, and Iyama is talking to himself a lot, clearly unhappy with the result so far.

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Post #135 Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:22 pm 
Tengen

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Iyama went for a rather bold strategy: he sacrificed his big group in exchange for doing things to White's cut groups on the outside, but whilst he can pressure them I don't think he can capture any so it'll be interesting to see if he can get enough profit elsewhere.

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Post #136 Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:35 am 
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alphaville wrote:
lichigo wrote:
Wouahhh ,where can I see it live ?


http://www.nicovideo.jp/



This link, to be specific

http://live2.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv306438818

The situation now

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DeepZen's suggestion

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Post #137 Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:41 am 
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Very close game, somehow Iyama Yuta had a problem at late game that let Takao Shinji catch up, but Iyama finally win by resignation! #SevenCrownsAgain

Update: I think I just can't watch human-human live game anymore, the pressure is very intense to me. Can't imagine the pressure on the real players. DeepZen evaluation helps me relieve a bit but the winrate is so swinging that I have a trust problem.

The final position

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Post #138 Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:59 am 
Tengen

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Classic Iyama, die but leave lots of bad aji and win when your opponent gets careless and the aji goes boom!

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Post #139 Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:32 am 
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It was a treat to watch :D
"I'm not interested in this group anymore, if you want it you can have it!"
*50 moves later*
"About this group I 'gave' you...I changed my mind and now I want it back!"

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Post #140 Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:15 am 
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alphaville wrote:
About 10 moves later (after move 104) the roles reversed: Takao is relaxed, and Iyama is talking to himself a lot, clearly unhappy with the result so far.


I think my favorite is Yamashita from a few years ago in the meijin I think where he called himself an idiot for a few minutes before trying to calm down and finishing the game.

I like that these videos are available. :)

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