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 Post subject: Re: Go Seigen Cup World Women's Championship
Post #21 Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:41 am 
Judan

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Here is the 1st Golaxy vs LeelaZero game. LZ lost after playing an utter nonsense move, some people wondered if this was a bug due to high tree simulations, but now it seems a technical relay error. LZ was at 39% win before though.



Should I move this and the other Golaxy vs LZ related posts to a new thread in computer go subforum?


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 Post subject: Re: Go Seigen Cup World Women's Championship
Post #22 Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:48 am 
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Golaxy 2 : LZ 0

Golaxy was so strong in close combat.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Seigen Cup World Women's Championship
Post #23 Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:55 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . O X X . . X X . |
$$ | X O O . X X . . X O . . O X . . O X O |
$$ | . X . O O . . X . O . . O . X X X O . |
$$ | X O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . a O . |
$$ | O . O X . . . X . . . . . . O . X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . X X X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O X . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X . X . , O . . O O , O X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It appears that white has two weak groups, plus the upper-left corner is not alive either. But Golaxy had the leisure to play :w2: to capture 4 stones and secure very big teritorry advantage. Note there's aji at 'a' so white probably did not think the groups were under any danger.

It ended up in this situation and white only started saving the weak groups at this moment.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . O X X . . X X . |
$$ | X O O . X X . . X O . . O X . . O X O |
$$ | . X . O O . . X . O . . O . X X X O . |
$$ | X O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . . O . |
$$ | O . O X . . . X . . . . . . O . X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . X X X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . X . O X X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X . X . , O . . O O , O X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Later:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . O X X . . X X . |
$$ | X O O . X X . . X O . . O X . . O X O |
$$ | . X . O O . . X . O . . O . X X X O . |
$$ | X O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . a O . |
$$ | O . O X . . . X . . 1 X . . O . X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . X X X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . X O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . X . O X X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X . X . , O . . O O , O X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Because of the aji at 'a' white could play this very strong move.

Later:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . O X X . . X X . |
$$ | X O O . X X . . X O . . O X . . O X O |
$$ | . X . O O . . X . O . . O . X X X O . |
$$ | X O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . 1 O . |
$$ | O . O X . . . X . . O X X O O . X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . O X . X X X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 3 X O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 4 2 O X X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 X X . . . . . X O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . X . O X X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X . X . , O . . O O , O X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black was forced to connect at :b1: and white managed to break out and black's bottom-right group became the defendant.

Later:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . a . . O X X . . X X . |
$$ | X O O . X X . 6 X O . . O X . . O X O |
$$ | . X . O O . . X . O . . O . X X X O . |
$$ | X O O X O . 3 2 4 . . . . O . . X O . |
$$ | O . O X . . 5 X . . O X X O O . X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . X . O X . X X X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . O O O X X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . O . O X X . . X . . X O |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O X . X X X X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O X . O O O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . X . . O X . X X X . O X X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . O X . . O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X O X X , O . . O O , O X . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


At this moment, I was thinking that white could play 'a' to at least create a ko fight. But Golaxy knew much better.

:w2: a good tesuji, and :w6: an even better one! White would either be unconditionally alive, or as in the real game, cut off black's central group and kill it!


This post by macelee was liked by 5 people: Bill Spight, Elom, gamesorry, sorin, tim
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 Post subject: Re: Go Seigen Cup World Women's Championship
Post #24 Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:35 pm 
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macelee wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . O X X . . X X . |
$$ | X O O . X X . . X O . . O X . . O X O |
$$ | . X . O O . . X . O . . O . X X X O . |
$$ | X O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . a O . |
$$ | O . O X . . . X . . . . . . O . X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . X X X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O X . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X . X . , O . . O O , O X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It appears that white has two weak groups, plus the upper-left corner is not alive either. But Golaxy had the leisure to play :w2: to capture 4 stones and secure very big teritorry advantage. Note there's aji at 'a' so white probably did not think the groups were under any danger.


I think that the main benefit from white 2 in the diagram is keeping the black group weak - of course, capturing 4 stones is a nice bonus on top of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Seigen Cup World Women's Championship
Post #25 Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:42 pm 
Judan

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Watching the game, I felt like the onus was on black (Leela Zero) to prove it was justified in allowing white to get both the turn and the block (marked) on the right side: allowing that just goes so much against my intuition. Yes the "plan" was obviously to get some large splitting attack later (but black needed to get the marked 2nd line connection at the top right before and chances to attack that white group) but in doing so white squirmed around on the right side a lot and took away black's territory and eyespace too, plus making the a cut bad aji (like sorin said unsettling that black group was most important aspect of the peep).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . O X B . . X X . |
$$ | X O O . X X . . X O . . O X . . O X O |
$$ | . X . O O . . X . O . . O . X X X O . |
$$ | X O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . a O . |
$$ | O . O X . . . X . . . . . . O . X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . X X X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O W . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . W X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O X . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X . X . , O . . O O , O X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: Go Seigen Cup World Women's Championship
Post #26 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:11 am 
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Returning to the original topic, there's indeed a qualifying round for the eight EU/NA players. 4 winners join the rest in the main tournament with 24 players in total. 8 stronger players will start from round 2.

Players:

China: Rui Naiwei*, Yu Zhiying, Wang Chengxing*, Li He, Gao Xing*, Lu Minquan, Yin Qu
Korea: Choi Jeong*, Oh Yujin*, Oh Jeonga, Kim Cheayoung
Japan: Xie Yimin*, Fujisawa Rina*, Ueno Asami, Nyu Eiko
Chinese Taipei: He Jiajia*, Yang Zixuan

Players with a star after their names are in round 2 directly.

Europe: Natalia Kovaleva, Rita Pocsai, Elvina Kalsberg, Laura Avram (I still need to verify the last two names because I have only source materials in Chinese)
North America: Feng Yun, Yin Mingming, Yu Jin, Su Geping (Feng Yun's daughter - she might have an English name which I need to find out)
Only 4 of them will enter the main tournament after the qualifying round.

Wildcard players: Zhang Xuan (CN), Guo Juan (EU), Manuela Marz (EU)


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 Post subject: Re: Go Seigen Cup World Women's Championship
Post #27 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:28 am 
Judan

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macelee wrote:
Elvina Kalsberg, Laura Avram (I still need to verify the last two names because I have only source materials in Chinese)

Both correct. I remember losing to Laura in the Tampere EGC, we were both 2ds on all wins so far.
Also nice to see Guo Juan playing.

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Post #28 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:34 am 
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I wonder what the criteria to select the players from each region was.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Seigen Cup World Women's Championship
Post #29 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Players seeded for 2nd round:

China: Rui Naiwei, Wang Chengxing, Gao Xing
Korea: Choi Jeong, Oh Yujin
Japan: Xie Yimin, Fujisawa Rina
Taipei: He Jiajia

Main tournament(1st round)(tonight);

Yu Zhiying vs Yin Mingming
Zhang Xuan vs Rita Pocsai
Lu Minquan vs Manuela Marz
Ueno Asami vs Yu Jin
Kim Chaeyoung vs Nyu Eiko
Yin Qu vs Feng Yun
Guo Juan vs Oh Jeongah
Li He vs Yang Zixuan


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 Post subject: Re: Go Seigen Cup World Women's Championship
Post #30 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:52 pm 
Judan

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Results of the computer tournament at this event: forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&p=230341#p230341

Also Guo Juan lost.

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Post #31 Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:07 am 
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Main tournament(2nd round)(tonight);

Yu Zhiying vs Oh Yujin
Zhang Xuan vs Xie Yimin
Lu Minquan vs Fujisawa Rina
Ueno Asami vs Rui Naiwei
Kim Chaeyoung vs Gao Xing
Yin Qu vs Choi Jeong
Wang Chengxing vs Oh Jeongah
Li He vs Hei Jiajia

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 Post subject: Re: Go Seigen Cup World Women's Championship
Post #32 Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:42 pm 
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Quarterfinal matches:

Yu Zhiying vs. Oh Jeongah
Xie Yimin vs. Kim Chaeyoung
Ueno Asami vs. Li He
Lu Minquan vs. Choi Jeong

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Post #33 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:45 am 
Judan

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Results:

Yu Zhiying beat Oh Jeongah
Xie Yimin lost to Kim Chaeyoung
Ueno Asami lost to Li He
Lu Minquan lost to Choi Jeong

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 Post subject: Re: Go Seigen Cup World Women's Championship
Post #34 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:49 am 
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In semifinal:

Yu Zhiying vs Kim Cheayoung
Choi Jeong vs Li He

Tournament table:

https://www.go4go.net/go/tournaments/news/211


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 Post subject: Re: Go Seigen Cup World Women's Championship
Post #35 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:24 am 
Judan

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Semi-final results:

- Choi Jeong beat Li He by resign. I wasn't a fan of Li's play on the lower side / tengen (if I was reviewing a weaker player's game I'd say "just because there's a dot there doesn't mean it's a good move"), and Leela Zero (#128, 2k visits) agrees Choi pulled ahead here, and even more so when Li obediently followed her funky knight's move 'joseki' at top right.
- Kim Chaeyoung beat Yu Zhiying by 1.5.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Choi Jung (white) vs Li He
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O X . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . . O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . X O . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . O . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Black answered 1 with the knight's move (to prevent press one space up), but LZ is not a fan, it wants to kick at a and treat right side pincer stone lightly. I remember at the Amateur gold cup in China Ma Tianfeng 7d (top Chinese amateur) got a good result against one of the European 6/7ds there with this knight's move, and kick as best answer was the conclusion of our analysis (but in that game black's left side was more important so Ma's move was probably very good). LZ also says 4 is a wimp, must cut or at least get bigger corner, and slide too (attach and crosscut, but by then down to 38%).

So final is Korean #1 vs #2, Choi leads 4-0 head to head (with 2 from 2018 female Kuksu title match earlier this year), but Kim is improving, can she step up her game on the big stage?


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Post #36 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:13 am 
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I think Kim played a fine game today. She and her sister have improved so much recently.

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Post #37 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:45 am 
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Kim Cheayoung won Game 1 of the final over Choi by resign.

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Post #38 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:08 am 
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"I am glad that I've achieved my dream of winning the world championship" --Kim Cheayoung 4p

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On Go proverbs:
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.

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Post #39 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:44 am 
Judan

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Kim won the 2nd game by 5.5. Choi played some pretty wacky centre moves, and then this 2 here I really don't understand. Yeah the ladder isn't good, but surely basic cut/connection principles say you need a darned good reason not to cut and let black get the connection? It's not like the 2 got anything amazing or even a contact move with a strong follow-up. I suppose it did help with the n5 attach/cut later so Kim just tenukid that. Maybe p12 is small/light as it already got black to answer at r14, but black is not so sad to have played there as it reinforces the corner (white did manage to live there later due to some helping aji on outside). :scratch:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Choi Jeong (white) vs Kim Chaeyoung
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . . . . . . . @ . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | X X O X X . . . . . . . . . 1 3 . . . |
$$ | X O O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O . , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I asked LeelaZero, she preferred 2 at 3 but said 2 wasn't so terrible, just -6% (which I think pros can be disappointed about but isn't rare). Biggest mistake so far was d12 cut which allowed black to live on side in sente, prefers d13 shape poke by 8%.

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