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 Post subject: Ishida Yoshio 9p at Honinbo Shusai's grave
Post #1 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:32 pm 
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From Yamashiro Hiroshi 9p's twitter (https://twitter.com/yamashiro_h).
Since this was posted on January 18, I suppose he was there for Shusai's death anniversary. Was it part of official (Nihon ki-in? as Honorary Honinbo?) business or does he have a more personal interest in/link with Shusai?

PS. Didn't really know where to post this or even if this should be posted. I just found the picture interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Ishida Yoshio 9p at Honinbo Shusai's grave
Post #2 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:44 pm 
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Just for the record, it's Shuei's grave just behind Ishida.

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 Post subject: Re: Ishida Yoshio 9p at Honinbo Shusai's grave
Post #3 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:26 am 
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Not surprising that he visits the Honinbo grave site. He is 24th Honinbo, Shuhou, so he's a member of the "family".

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 Post subject: Re: Ishida Yoshio 9p at Honinbo Shusai's grave
Post #4 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 1:34 am 
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Honinbo Shusai was the last of the Honinbo family and gave the family name to Nihon-Kiin, which led to the Honinbo title tournament. In commemorating his achievement, Nihon-Kiin holds an annual memorial on the date of his death, Jan 18. It should be hosted by the current Honinbo holder, Iyama Yuta.
By the way this temple seems to be a Honinbo family temple, and hosts graves of various Honinbo heirs including Shusaku, Dosaku and Jowa. The name of the temple is called Honmyo-ji and located in Sugamo, Tokyo.


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 Post subject: Re: Ishida Yoshio 9p at Honinbo Shusai's grave
Post #5 Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:43 pm 
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It's too bad Shusai was such a horrible person, successfully conniving to steal the Honinbo family title after Shuei's death, cheating during challenge matches, and selling the Honinbo title to buy himself an expensive property w/o putting a single cent back into the Nihon Kiin and go community. The saddest thing is that Nihon Kiin has depicted him as one of the heroes of 20th century, and still continues to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Ishida Yoshio 9p at Honinbo Shusai's grave
Post #6 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:44 am 
Oza

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Quote:
It's too bad Shusai was such a horrible person, successfully conniving to steal the Honinbo family title after Shuei's death, cheating during challenge matches, and selling the Honinbo title to buy himself an expensive property w/o putting a single cent back into the Nihon Kiin and go community. The saddest thing is that Nihon Kiin has depicted him as one of the heroes of 20th century, and still continues to do so.


Assuming this is not troll bait, you might like to explain why you follow blindly Go Seigen's self-serving propaganda about Shusai and also what GSG did for the Nihon Ki-in's finances.

Shusai wasn't a saint, by any means, but he did extensive work (and more than any others) in the fledgling Kido, commenting on games both of players of the past and current players, and so may be considered to have taught. He never hid himself away and was always willing to play others, i.e. never hiding behind his title. He also lived very abstemiously himself.

Further, when he sold the rights to his titles, which was initiated by newspapers rather than himself, he shared out some of the money to his pupils as they would then lose the opportunity to become an hereditary Honinbo. A good case could also be made that his decision to sell was the best thing that could happen, leading to the thriving tournament scene we have today. In other words, he gave the Nihon Ki-in something ore valuable than mere money - prestige and tradition. That, in turn, attracted major sponsors.


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 Post subject: Re: Ishida Yoshio 9p at Honinbo Shusai's grave
Post #7 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:08 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
It's too bad Shusai was such a horrible person, successfully conniving to steal the Honinbo family title after Shuei's death, cheating during challenge matches, and selling the Honinbo title to buy himself an expensive property w/o putting a single cent back into the Nihon Kiin and go community. The saddest thing is that Nihon Kiin has depicted him as one of the heroes of 20th century, and still continues to do so.


Assuming this is not troll bait, you might like to explain why you follow blindly Go Seigen's self-serving propaganda about Shusai and also what GSG did for the Nihon Ki-in's finances.

Shusai wasn't a saint, by any means, but he did extensive work (and more than any others) in the fledgling Kido, commenting on games both of players of the past and current players, and so may be considered to have taught. He never hid himself away and was always willing to play others, i.e. never hiding behind his title. He also lived very abstemiously himself.

Further, when he sold the rights to his titles, which was initiated by newspapers rather than himself, he shared out some of the money to his pupils as they would then lose the opportunity to become an hereditary Honinbo. A good case could also be made that his decision to sell was the best thing that could happen, leading to the thriving tournament scene we have today. In other words, he gave the Nihon Ki-in something ore valuable than mere money - prestige and tradition. That, in turn, attracted major sponsors.


Not everything's black and white!

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"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.

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 Post subject: Re: Ishida Yoshio 9p at Honinbo Shusai's grave
Post #8 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:11 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
It's too bad Shusai was such a horrible person, successfully conniving to steal the Honinbo family title after Shuei's death, cheating during challenge matches, and selling the Honinbo title to buy himself an expensive property w/o putting a single cent back into the Nihon Kiin and go community. The saddest thing is that Nihon Kiin has depicted him as one of the heroes of 20th century, and still continues to do so.


Assuming this is not troll bait, you might like to explain why you follow blindly Go Seigen's self-serving propaganda about Shusai and also what GSG did for the Nihon Ki-in's finances.

Shusai wasn't a saint, by any means, but he did extensive work (and more than any others) in the fledgling Kido, commenting on games both of players of the past and current players, and so may be considered to have taught. He never hid himself away and was always willing to play others, i.e. never hiding behind his title. He also lived very abstemiously himself.

Further, when he sold the rights to his titles, which was initiated by newspapers rather than himself, he shared out some of the money to his pupils as they would then lose the opportunity to become an hereditary Honinbo. A good case could also be made that his decision to sell was the best thing that could happen, leading to the thriving tournament scene we have today. In other words, he gave the Nihon Ki-in something ore valuable than mere money - prestige and tradition. That, in turn, attracted major sponsors.

Assuming this is not troll bait, you might like to explain why you can't reason basic arguments of right and wrong, such as when creating self-serving statements like "what GSG did for the Nihon Ki-in's finances." But assuming this is not troll bait, a good case could also be made that GSG gave the Nihon Ki-in something more valuable than mere money - prestige and tradition by playing their professionals and staying in Japan. Oh wait. No, this is an bad case. Flimsy and thin.

Nothing mentioned in your reply counters any of the facts I stated about Shusai above. Shusai was a horrible person by doing these things, regardless of what other things he did. No good or decent person would even attempt to do these things toward another person. I need to know, are you incapable of evaluating basic right from wrong? Would you go around conniving in order to steal my family after my death, then tell me on my grave that you donated a few dollars to my children after doing so, therefore everything is alright? Please.

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 Post subject: Re: Ishida Yoshio 9p at Honinbo Shusai's grave
Post #9 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:35 am 
Judan

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Allen wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
It's too bad Shusai was such a horrible person, successfully conniving to steal the Honinbo family title after Shuei's death, cheating during challenge matches, and selling the Honinbo title to buy himself an expensive property w/o putting a single cent back into the Nihon Kiin and go community. The saddest thing is that Nihon Kiin has depicted him as one of the heroes of 20th century, and still continues to do so.


Assuming this is not troll bait, you might like to explain why you follow blindly Go Seigen's self-serving propaganda about Shusai and also what GSG did for the Nihon Ki-in's finances.

Shusai wasn't a saint, by any means, but he did extensive work (and more than any others) in the fledgling Kido, commenting on games both of players of the past and current players, and so may be considered to have taught. He never hid himself away and was always willing to play others, i.e. never hiding behind his title. He also lived very abstemiously himself.

Further, when he sold the rights to his titles, which was initiated by newspapers rather than himself, he shared out some of the money to his pupils as they would then lose the opportunity to become an hereditary Honinbo. A good case could also be made that his decision to sell was the best thing that could happen, leading to the thriving tournament scene we have today. In other words, he gave the Nihon Ki-in something ore valuable than mere money - prestige and tradition. That, in turn, attracted major sponsors.

Assuming this is not troll bait, you might like to explain why you can't reason basic arguments of right and wrong,


I have no dog in this fight concerning Shusai vs. Go Seigen. However, I have not only read John Fairbairn's writings for some time, I met him at the Fourth International Conference on Baduk, where we were both presenters. My presentation was in the area of mathematical go, and, even though he claims no mathematical expertise, his questions and observations from the audience were quite astute. I have no doubt about his ability to reason. :)

Quote:
I need to know, are you incapable of evaluating basic right from wrong?


Yoda wrote:
Have such a need, do you?


Quote:
Would you go around conniving in order to steal my family after my death, then tell me on my grave that you donated a few dollars to my children after doing so, therefore everything is alright? Please.


You seem to assume that somehow the Nihon Kiin or somebody besides the Honinbo House had the rights to its name and title. If there is an analogy to a family, then Shusai was its head, and his students were his children. There is no thief in that analogy.

There are certainly questions about Shusai's cashing out or selling out. I have not studied the controversy and cannot speak to those questions. But personal attacks and flawed analogies are unlikely to shed much light on them.

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

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 Post subject: Re: Ishida Yoshio 9p at Honinbo Shusai's grave
Post #10 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:35 am 
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You've almost got the analogy, Bill. Keep at it! ;-)

Hint: Try inserting Shuei somewhere in there.

P.S. The analogy is only of tertiary importance to that sentence, don't let it trick you!

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 Post subject: Re: Ishida Yoshio 9p at Honinbo Shusai's grave
Post #11 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:09 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Shusai ... He also lived very abstemiously himself.


At least one thing I can learn from the guy!

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