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 Post subject: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and LZ
Post #1 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:36 am 
Judan

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I'm currently in Korea at BIBA for a week after participating in the 13th KPMC. Today we visited the Hankuk Kiwon to support Blackie's team (Jungkwangjang, a Ginseng product) who were playing a match in the Korean baduk league. He's the team coach/manager which means he picks the players/board order. This team won last year (when he wasn't the manager!) but were currently in the middle of the 8-team field (see https://gotoeveryone.k2ss.info/kr/kl/16). The top 4 teams make the play-offs at the end of the season. Each match is 5 games, one of them slow (which means 1 hour and maybe 40 sec 5 times) whilst the others are I think some small amount of main time and 30 second byo yomis. The games are played in a TV studio in the basement of the Hankuk Kiwon in Seoul and there's a room next door with boards and TVs broadcasting the games for others to follow along.

Playing 1st board for Blackie's team was Korean wonderkid Shin Jinseo 9p (goratings #3), against Team Kixx first board Yun Junsang 9p (#34). 2nd board was Park Jinsol 8p (#68) in a tough pairing against Kim Jiseok 9p (#7) (maybe Kixx didn't put their strongest on first board as they thought he'd lose to Shin anyway so maximize chance to win board 3?). Blackie picked female pro Oh Yujin 6p (#156) to play the slow game, against Baek Hongsuk 9p (#75), over legend Lee Changho 9p (#105) who is also on the team but hasn't been doing so well recently, plus Oh recently beat him in the GG Auction cup event of female vs older male pros (I got to play a simul against Oh at the KPMC). These 3 games started first around 6:30, you can find the records on WBaduk, Tygem, Fox etc and game databases later.

Various other pros from the team plus friends were in the next door room following the games. I was interested to see that like the Chinese pros at the Changqi cup semi-finals in Cambridge, Korean pros were also using Lizzie / Leela Zero to analyse the game live. Shin was expected to win but actually was losing at various points in the game (LZ didn't like his sacrifice of 2 stones) but he was the first to win by resign. Park Jinsol also managed to beat Kim Jiseok in a see-sawing game which was a great start. Even though he wasn't playing Lee Changho dropped by to follow the games so it was cool to get to meet him too. Oh Yujin's game wasn't going so well when the other 2 games started with Kim Myeonghoon 6p (#43, a rising young player) and Han Seungjoo 4p (#92). Unfortunately they both started badly, and then Oh resigned so the good start wasn't looking so good anymore. Kim's game was practically over in the first fight said Blackie, LZ gave his opponent 98% but he recovered somewhat and then when his opponent played a solid pole connection allowing a squeeze there were muted squeals of excitement as LZ instantly identified it as a 30% blunder and the game was reversed. Much fighting and ko trades followed but Kim seized his chance and won the game. Han wasn't so fortunate so the end result was a 3-2 win. Here's some pictures.

The playing room, Blackie's team are in red (from closest: Park Jinsol, Shin Jinseo, Oh Yujin).
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In the analysis room before the match started, Shin Jinseo is the one leading the discussion of various AI josekis on the middle left.
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Some pro with Lizzie on his laptop (running remotely I assume as he was getting 70k playouts in sensible times), looking at a variation for Shin Jinseo not sacrificing the 2 stones.
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Lee Changho and Blackie analysing an exciting fight in Park Jinsol's game.
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Blackie front left, Lee Changho front right, Shin Jinseo standing on left with fan, Lizzie analysis centre stage.
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Shin Jinseo reviewing his game with Lizzie afterwards.
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The BadukTV editing/mixing studio
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This post by Uberdude was liked by 17 people: apetresc, Bill Spight, Calvin Clark, Elom, ez4u, gamesorry, hyperpape, Jaafar, Kirby, Leon, Marcel Grünauer, sorin, thirdfogie, tim, Waylon, wolfking, xiayun
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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #2 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:24 pm 
Honinbo

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Sounds fun. I should visit BIBA sometime.

When we go to Korea to see relatives, we are usually around Daegu, though... So I rarely spend much time around Seoul.

Anyway, have fun!

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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #3 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:45 pm 
Lives with ko

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Very nice photos, thank you!
Congrats for the tournament, sorry you missed a chance in the last game...

I am curious how do pros use Leela Zero exactly, in case you were able to see that in some detail - are they using it also for analyzing fights, or mostly just in the opening and early mid-game for direction of play?

Are they using it for the early endgame analysis at all?
(If I remember correctly, Nie Weiping commented that AlphaGo's strongest point is in early endgame, after the match with Lee Sedol).

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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #4 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:34 pm 
Judan

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I don't understand Korean, but from watching them clicking around and body language I'd say:
- they use it throughout the game
- they believe LZ's evaluation of who is leading more than their own, or maybe they are just lazy to count or unsure of their judgement.
- Lee Changho seemed less of a "slave to the AI" (which fits with my noticing he still plays more old-style like taking the gote walls on 3rd line), quietly replaying the game from his phone on a board by himself
- In opening and middle game fighting LZ seems to find the right direction or suggest moves they are impressed by. e.g. in below black played press of 3 which seemed like a normal move Shin expected but LZ preferred the looser move one space above which I think would have surprised him. Also black jump of 1 was better at b or nearby points and they explored some variations.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . d c . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . X O . c . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . 1 . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . b a . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . X . , . 3 . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . . . O . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

- A few moves later black played a peep at c which Shin ignored (because it was played as a tenuki from black c white d on right side) to defend at e and LZ agreed the peep was bad timing and Shin was right to play e. I don't know how sure he was in his opinion that was the best move, but at least LZ agreed with him and he presumably values that opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #5 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:44 am 
Dies in gote

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Hi,

While you are there, can you ask the kind folks @BadukTV when they plan to restore subscription to their service for non koreans.

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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #6 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:42 am 
Judan

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Uberdude wrote:
- they believe LZ's evaluation of who is leading more than their own, or maybe they are just lazy to count or unsure of their judgement.


DrStraw's counting method aside, as well as Robert Jasiek's method, the counting that is taught in books is to count sure territory and supplement that with some vague guesses about influence. (Do the pros have secret counting methods they have been hiding for decades?) As for judgement, the bots have shown us so many new possibilities, who can be sure of their own judgement now?

Quote:
- In opening and middle game fighting LZ seems to find the right direction or suggest moves they are impressed by. e.g. in below black played press of 3 which seemed like a normal move Shin expected but LZ preferred the looser move one space above which I think would have surprised him. Also black jump of 1 was better at b or nearby points and they explored some variations.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . d c . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . X O . c . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . 1 . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . b a . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . X . , . 3 . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . . . O . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

(Emphasis mine.)

b instead of :b1: looks like a Dosaku move to me. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #7 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:32 am 
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Oreos. Breakfast of champions, apparently.

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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #8 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:12 am 
Judan

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Seeing as there's no Shin Jinseo appreciation thread, I will co-opt this as one to highlight an amusing hockey stick/thor's hammer/borg cube with appendages he made Fan Tingyu make in the chinese league today. This positions is hard to reverse engineer!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Shin Jinseo (black) vs Fan Tingyu
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O X . O O O X X X X . . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O O W O O O O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . . O X . O O O X X X O X . X X . |
$$ | . O O O . X . . . O . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #9 Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:25 am 
Dies in gote

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Looks great.

I'm in Seoul next month and was planning on visiting BIBA. I still need to decide how much time to potentially spend at BIBA vs time spent more of Korea (/maybe beyond).

I'm guessing that you were really lucky to see live pro games like this?

What are other's experiences? Is anything to make sure I catch/avoid?

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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #10 Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:16 am 
Judan

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Mike, I think Blackie and the BIBA students go the baduk league matches (or other events) in the Hankuk Kiwon more often now that he is the manager of a team: I went once or twice in 2 months 5 years ago and once in a week during my recent 1 week stay. I suggest you get in touch with Blackie/Dia and mention you'd like to visit a match so you can plan your trip at a suitable time.

As for Shin Jinseo, his good form continued with winning the 5th Okage cup (for young players, so not so tough competition).

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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #11 Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:38 am 
Oza

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Quote:
As for Shin Jinseo, his good form continued with winning the 5th Okage cup (for young players, so not so tough competition).


I think you're mixing up the O-Kage Cup (now up to its 9th term) with the 5th O-Kage International New Stars Match, which Korea did win (beating China 4-1, and Japan scraped ahead of Taiwan for third place). But Sin Chin-seo did indeed win all four of his games. Ichiriki Ryo made a promising showing for Japan, going 3-1.

I'm surprised you called them young players. They can be up to 30. Do I detect a feeling that policemen are now looking young to you :)

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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #12 Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:07 am 
Judan

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Yes, I wasn't sure on the event/format: I saw https://senseis.xmp.net/?Okage which doesn't match with the 5th edition being in 2018, and Shin Jinseo is under 30 but not <=7d. I saw the game on WBaduk subsequently in go4go described as "[2018-10-15] 5th Okage Cup World New Star Competition, final", but there are 5 other games with that description so it's the final round of a team event rather than an individual champion.

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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #13 Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:11 am 
Oza

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Quote:
so it's the final round of a team event rather than an individual champion.


Not quite. Because I know some people here like to follow the formats, I'll add that there were three rounds, and the top two from those (KC) played off in the final, and JT played for the wooden spoon.

Also, it's NHK timing.

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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #14 Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:48 am 
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I followed Uberdude's advice, and my trip was timed luckily so I got to see the final.

I may post more about my experience when I have a moment, but for now, check out the background of this picture to see the best go player in the world (Shin Jinseo, goratings no1) displaying unusual technique in eating fruit.
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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #15 Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:27 am 
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MikeKyle wrote:
I followed Uberdude's advice, and my trip was timed luckily so I got to see the final.


The junk food is strong with the pros. And is that a single egg in a plastic casing next to Blackie?

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 Post subject: Re: Korean baduk league visit: Shin Jinseo, Lee Changho and
Post #16 Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:50 pm 
Dies in gote

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Marcel Grünauer wrote:
The junk food is strong with the pros.


Absolutely.
There were cookies, crisps, red bean buns, oreos, matcha puddings, pizza.
There were also a lot of oranges. Seems like you can't have a Korean baduk party without a box of oranges.
Marcel Grünauer wrote:
And is that a single egg in a plastic casing next to Blackie?

Yes. You buy them in twos and one of the young pros already ate the other.

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