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 Post subject: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #1 Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 4:47 am 
Judan

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For quite some years now the Following Iyama Yuta thread and its predecessor have served as effectively a "Japanese title match news" thread. But with Iyama losing a few (Gosei to Kyo Kagen, Meijin to Cho U, Judan to Murukawa Dasiuke) I thought I'd make this one for following the others.

A few weeks ago Iyama lost to Ichiriki Ryo in the semi-finals of the Gosei challenger decision tournament, and Ichiriki yesterday lost to Hane Naoki (below), so Kyo will play the first game of the final on 30th June against 21-years-his-senior Hane. Hane won 8 big tiles in the years 2001-2011 (most recent was the Gosei) and was last in a final in 2012 so this is something of a comeback for him. Can he do a Cho U and win a title some years after his peak?



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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:08 am 
Judan

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1st game of the Gosei title match, Hane Naoki challenging Kyo Kagen is live now.

Attachment:
2019 gosei g1 screenshot.PNG
2019 gosei g1 screenshot.PNG [ 596.49 KiB | Viewed 2449 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #3 Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:11 am 
Lives in gote
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Hane Naoki (black) won by resignation.



Attachments:
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:49 pm 
Lives with ko

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jlt wrote:
Hane Naoki (black) won by resignation.



White E6 and E13 are interesting. Kyo seems to be experimenting?

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #5 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:11 pm 
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Hades12 wrote:
...
White E6 and E13 are interesting. Kyo seems to be experimenting?


I think E6 is normal when one approach stone is pincered along its side ( C10 ) and the other has support along its side (N3).
It is white's move 20 at D3 instead of B5 that looks experimental to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #6 Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:27 am 
Judan

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e6 rather than one of the attaches isn't a move unseen before AI (e.g. Bao Yun likes it after double low approach to 2-space high pincer and I tried it in one of my British title matches), but it is a move I've noticed AI sometimes has a marked preference for over the traditional attaches, so that's probably behind Kyo using it.

Game 3 was a few days ago, Kyo won to stay in the match at 1-2 now (first to 3 wins). Next game is 9th August.


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #7 Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:07 am 
Judan

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Kyo Kagen won the 4th game too to set up a deciding 5th game on 23rd August.



Following along with LZ, one moment I found particularly interesting was move 27, where LZ thought Kyo's haengma was poor and there was a much better way (FineArt in the Fox commentarary agrees). Instead of h6 attach, which simply gets black out to the centre (with some shape problems) and doesn't capture the cutting stones (though Hane gave them up later, he shouldn't have), he should have leaned/offered a sacrifice at k4. This attempts to build a clearer miai of doing one job or another well intead of a bit of either poorly: either get the bottom group out with style by aiming at the k3 push and 2 cuts weaknesses, or get some forcing/inducing moves out of it and net the centre cutting stones. For example if white pushes through:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X 9 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . 3 7 4 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . X 2 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . O O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Attachments:
2019 gosei 4 [许家元]vs[羽根直树]1565341897010001924.sgf [11.78 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #8 Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:48 am 
Judan

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Here's the deciding 5th game of the Gosei, Kyo Kagen (black) vs Hane Naoki, so far:



Update: Hane won, and wins Gosei title. Kyo ignore the threat at last move in game above, then that top left side group became ko, Hane won that ko for bottom white temporarily dying but then top black group was almost dead and middle dying too when he resigned.

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #9 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:10 pm 
Tengen

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The first day of round 1 of the Meijin is live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ehEr5C ... e=youtu.be.

Cho is Black, Shibano is the challenger.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(I had moves 2 and 4 reversed before).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 7 6 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 2 5 O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 3 1 X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . 4 X O O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 1 X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


All this happened in about 30 minutes. I'll have to stop following for awhile.

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #10 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:01 am 
Judan

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Today's play:



Bot thinks white should just cut in the centre and give up on the lower stone!

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #11 Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:24 am 
Judan

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Cho U won the first game: Shibano couldn't hang on to enough of his moyo.



Attachments:
[张栩]vs[芝野虎丸]1566983813010001188.sgf [20.66 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #12 Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:35 pm 
Judan

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Interestingly this same opening is in a game today in the Kisei A league between Cho U (black again) and Ichiriki Ryo, and Ichiriki played the reduction recommended by LZ and FineArt instead of Atari on top like Shibano. I wonder did he find this move himself or review that game with AI.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a X O O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


A few moves later there was an interesting direction question.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 6 B . . . , . . a . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 4 X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Ichiriki blocked at b, which feels like a human fighting spirit move of "you ignored my shoulder hit which threatens to split the side so I'll do it". It also strengthens the White group by giving options for eyespace on the side. But the black groups above and below are both pretty safe so LZ says slow. It prefers to shoulder hit at a, another way of bolstering the group whilst simultaneously reducing Black's potential he just developed on the lower side with his last move. It's a 2 space jump but hard to cut directly given the forcing moves the shoulder hit threatens. A beautiful haengma. Cho responded with his own shoulder hit at c, leaning on the now strong group to grow the bottom, and Ichiriki played a now anyway (still the best move says LZ), but then Cho cut at d and a complicated fight erupted. So whilst people often say bot suggestions are complicated and hard to learn from, here the bot suggests a nice and simple move focused on keeping stones connected with good timing, whilst the humans went and made a complicated mess.


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #13 Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:40 pm 
Judan

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Today is the first day of the second Meijin game Cho Vs Shibano. I think Cho will be happy as Shibano didn't sabaki as well as bots thought he could whilst Cho got solid territory and can still harass him.

Here's the first day's play. With a 100 move variation of me exploring why LZ (low playouts on phone) why black didn't need to live in gote with his top group because if White tries to kill the outside weakness is a problem in a fight that sprawls to fill a quarter of the board.



Attachments:
Ah Q Go Lite-20190910_133353_796.sgf [14.79 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #14 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:43 am 
Judan

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Shibano won his first title match game to tie the score at 1-1. Cho used some reductions of the right side to create aji and engineered an attack on the black group coming out from the left, but Shibano managed to keep his lower right territory and not die.


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #15 Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:23 am 
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A point that has been overlooked is that the Japanese are reverting to holding some title-match games overseas - maybe a good sign? This one was held in Taipei, so Cho was on home ground.

Cho set a record for the longest think about a sealed move (120) in Meijin history, at 70 minutes (out of a total time allowance of hours). It seems that the Japanese AI analysis had White very slightly ahead at that point, and the cause of Cho's defeat was possibly a mistake in his attack on the left with 160. 160 in the game was a tesuji, but that's another reminder that tesujis can often be duff moves. Context is all.

Play on the second day was apparently more like a blitz game. The first thought that comes to mind is that both players had analysed the fight deeply overnight, so didn't need to think any more - except for that pesky tesuji!

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #16 Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:58 am 
Judan

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Shibano won the 3rd game by resign.


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese title matches without Iyama
Post #17 Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:33 pm 
Judan

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Shibano is currently playing Kyo Kagen in the 67th Oza challenger decision match (he beat Cho U in an earlier round). Can he have a go at another title or will Kyo get a chance to regain one after losing the Gosei to Hane Naoki. Iyama Yuta is the defending champion.

https://home.yikeweiqi.com/#/live/board/22976

(I wasn't sure whether to put this here or the old Shibano thread, but it seemed topical ).

UPDATE: Shibano won by resign. He was behind for much of the game but in the last middlegame area after living with his weak groups he managed to reduce Kyo's moyo more than the bots thought he deserved.


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