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 Post subject: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI cheating
Post #1 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:52 am 
Judan

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Reddit thread with links to Chinese articles. https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments ... _cheating/

Another https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments ... after_the/ with Korean article https://baduk.hangame.com/news.nhn?gseq ... earchtext=

Video of Cho Hyeyeon 9p talking about it in English.
https://youtu.be/2RWb-txjnVU
I think this is the post by Park Jieun 9p on 13th referred to
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 0826491727

The game itself Vs Lee Younggu 9p:
https://online-go.com/game/28464202


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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #2 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:06 pm 
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In the video, an earlier cheater is mentioned. I could not quite understand the pronunciation. Did Cho say the he was in jail for one year?

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #3 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:31 pm 
Judan

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RobertJasiek wrote:
Did Cho say the he was in jail for one year?

Yes, I believe this was the case of someone in the pro qualification tournament found with an earpiece and an accomplice sending bot moves (though I only recently learnt about the jail outcome, I imagine coming under fraud).

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #4 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:07 pm 
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But 1 year ban seems quite appropriate for the age of the girl,it remembers me of a recent chess case (in Poland)also a young girl had decent (not great results at a real life event) and she went to toilette alot of times and immediately played the perfect move afterwards,(she was cheating there) her oppenent realised something is wrong, but she was too hesistant since everyone wanted to see her suceed,also she would lose tons of face since she cant back up her claims immediately,but later she felt too bad and accused her cheating,luckily they collected enough evidence to find her guilty but still they had to suffer from claims like " you just want to get rid of your competetion etc),it shows those things can get very ugly which really make feel very ambigious about ai.


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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #5 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:56 pm 
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Personally, I think she shouldn't be pro anymore. It's unfortunate, and maybe she's young and had promise. But she's a professional player here. If you dip the standards like this, you can't respect the pro go associations anymore in this age of AI.

There has to be a precedent for behavior, or else professionals really do lose their status - if cheaters that use AI are among them, there's really no difference at all between them and a kid with a GPU.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #6 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:49 pm 
Judan

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Kirby, I might agree if she was an adult, but she's a 13-year old child. Kids in Asia learn go and get so strong so young it's easy to forget they are still young children. Yes being a pro even if a child means you take on more responsibility than other 13 year olds taking the more usual life path of immaturity at school. The age of criminal responsibility in many countries is 14, including South Korea and formerly England (reduced to 10, this chap thinks that was a bad idea and I'm minded to agree though it's not an issue I've thought deeply about). Not saying I think a 1 year ban is correct, but being a child should make significant differences to the outcome I think.

The situation is complicated that she is, I presume, not always cheating and is indeed a strong and very promising young player, so the KBA may have an incentive to not punish her as severely as a less strong/promising player, out of fear of crippling the chances of a Korean girl/women to be winning world titles in 5 years time.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #7 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:11 am 
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Chess grandmasters who are caught cheating typically get banned for a few years, not for life. In sports, Ben Johnson was banned for 2 years, Justin Gatlin for 4 years so a 3-year ban for adult go professionals seems appropriate. Punishments should be lighter for children than for adults, like in criminal cases.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #8 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:57 am 
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In this, as in real crime, we might want to consider the goal. In wide strokes the goals can be three: teach, make an example, remove a danger.

If the goal is to remove a danger to Baduk, then kicking her out of the professional world won't solve it. There are still venues for illegal misuse of her knowledge and tarnishing the KBA reputation. The only lasting "solution" is... rather permanent. And, I'd hope, not, really NOT welcome.

Now that we've accepted that that's barbaric, I hope we can dismiss it as a solution to "make an example". There are other options to make an example... Recidivism rates in prison population don't seem to indicate that harsh punishment works. Not even as an example for others.

Teach... Burned hands do NOT teach best. Warmed twice over hands, maybe. Burned? Not. Burned teaches how not to get burned, not how to do things well; and it's different. Talk to teachers; those who can't select their pupils.

And she's a kid. A part of maturity is learned, a bunch of it needs the right hormones at the right time. Maturity doesn't simply grow from responsibility. And I think I mentioned before (when talking about Nakamura shodan) I'm not at all sure the rising of young prodigies is good for their emotional development. Nor their moral.

Add to that the fact that the kid possibly has trainers. Who had the idea? Who pushed for it? If society is saying this is cheating and so very bad, but your superiors --in a deeply hierarchical setting-- tell you to do X and not get caught... Who does a 13 year old obey? Those would be the very same superiors that likely got her pro status.

So... Well, for starters, if there is a need for punishment... check her trainers. Thoroughly. I'm restraining myself from advocating going full witch-hunt on them, but at the very least their innatention has put an early teens reputation and career on the line.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #9 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:51 am 
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The fact that a kid cheated is not necessarily the trainer's fault. Cheating also occurs at school and it's not the teacher's fault.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #10 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:18 am 
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jlt wrote:
The fact that a kid cheated is not necessarily the trainer's fault. Cheating also occurs at school and it's not the teacher's fault.


Not quite the same. The teacher is more like the referee, as I see it.

Now, I'll agree that the teachers don't *have* to be at fault. But I'd like to see it checked. I'd say the overall influence in the life of their student is much bigger for a Go instructor that for most high school teachers.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #11 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:36 am 
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Her age is irrelevant. As a kid pro, you can receive all the perks of being a pro. If you win a tournament, you get the prize money. If being a kid means you don’t have the same responsibilities as an adult, then being a kid means you’re not mature enough to be professional.

A precedent is being set here. In fact, I believe that due to this event, they set a rule saying that if future cases arise, it’s a minimum 3 year ban.

1. It’s not fair then that this kid just gets 1 year.
2. If prize money is high enough, any pro can gamble with the risk of losing 3 years. “Should I risk 3 years to win this $100k prize money?”

The pro world already took a hit after AlphaGo. Saying that pros can be pros even when they cheat is a sure fire way to kill respect for the system.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #12 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:56 am 
Judan

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Kirby wrote:
Her age is irrelevant. As a kid pro, you can receive all the perks of being a pro. If you win a tournament, you get the prize money. If being a kid means you don’t have the same responsibilities as an adult, then being a kid means you’re not mature enough to be professional.


I quite possibly agree. If you are competing for big money but are not old enough to be criminal responsible for fraud, perhaps you shouldn't be competing for big money. Are there any other fields where young children are involved in such high stakes competitions? I know beauty pageants and spelling bees are big in the USA, but do the kids win money? Kids playing chess, sports? 13 year old gymnasts in the Olympics claiming to be older than they really are?

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #13 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:22 am 
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Can 13 year old pros sign contracts by themselves or do they need signature/approval of an adult? Can they use their money prize as they like or is the money under the responsibility of an adult until they reach a certain age?


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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #14 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:48 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Her age is irrelevant. As a kid pro, you can receive all the perks of being a pro. If you win a tournament, you get the prize money. If being a kid means you don’t have the same responsibilities as an adult, then being a kid means you’re not mature enough to be professional.


I quite possibly agree. If you are competing for big money but are not old enough to be criminal responsible for fraud, perhaps you shouldn't be competing for big money. Are there any other fields where young children are involved in such high stakes competitions? I know beauty pageants and spelling bees are big in the USA, but do the kids win money? Kids playing chess, sports? 13 year old gymnasts in the Olympics claiming to be older than they really are?


Maybe there's the argument that kids this age are simply too young to have the rewards and responsibilities of being pro. I don't know the answer to that. Aside from money and cheating, it's probably true that kids that age can get stronger by competing in the pro world. But I can see the viewpoint that things get complicated when kids are getting money and/or facing charges of cheating... Not really sure.

In any case, my fear is that having a small punishment like this for cheating reduces the overall value of the pro system, as well as the effort of other pros (including kids) who are working hard for their results without cheating. This case seems to have already been decided, though, so I guess the standard going forward is, "If you're willing to risk losing 3 years as a pro, cheating might be a way to get a quick buck". :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #15 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:08 am 
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In baseball, steroid use nets you 1/2 season, then a full season, then a lifetime ban. A year doesn't seem out of line with how other professional games deal with cheating.

I'd also note that teaching is an important source of income for professional Go players. A damaged reputation is probably a cost above and beyond just the suspension time.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #16 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:54 am 
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Regarding teenage responsibility and pro status. Imagine I focus on Nakamura-shodan junior schoolmates. I mentor one of them and convince her to celebrate her shodan by poisoning the school cafeteria.

Since she can sign contracts, she's on death row, right? She's responsible, an adult. And Japan does have death penalty.

Oh, but I convinced her as a minor, before she could sign... Sure. Then, what if I wait? At what point would that no longer be absurd?

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #17 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:06 am 
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Polama wrote:
In baseball, steroid use nets you 1/2 season, then a full season, then a lifetime ban. A year doesn't seem out of line with how other professional games deal with cheating.

I'd also note that teaching is an important source of income for professional Go players. A damaged reputation is probably a cost above and beyond just the suspension time.


The steroids example doesn't exactly fit - steroids may enhance your athletic ability in some way, but the result of your performance is not guaranteed. Cheating with AI can nearly guarantee that you'll win against a non-cheater.

I agree that damaged reputation is harmful to a pro. My point in addition to that is that an organization that tolerates players with damaged reputations, in itself, gets a damaged reputation.

For professional go to mean anything, there has to be a culture of morality and honor - above the levels you'd see in some sporting event. If we strip professional go of its honor, then the organization really loses value. Wanna watch the latest Ing Cup tournament? Who really cares? You might just be watching two bots play, anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #18 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:33 am 
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A life time ban seems only justified if it prevents mores players from cheating than with a three-year-ban. E.g. the dealth penalty does not prevent more people from killing than decades long prison sentences.

Though I must say, I find the notion of morality and honour in the context of professional go quite odd. It's a sport. It should be fair and an equal level playing field. That's what rules are for. Subjective feelings what ought to be correct make for good entertainment or pub talk but that's it.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #19 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:18 pm 
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SoDesuNe wrote:
Though I must say, I find the notion of morality and honour in the context of professional go quite odd.


I believe that a number of professional players in Korea would disagree with you. And in fact, this particular professional player is likely getting special treatment because of her earlier performances (and, perhaps, her mom). Had it been an older, poorer performing player, they'd have gotten the axe.

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 Post subject: Re: Young Korean pro Kim Eunji banned for 1 year for AI chea
Post #20 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:24 pm 
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believe that a number of professional players in Korea would disagree with you. And in fact, this particular professional player is likely getting special treatment because of her earlier performances. Had it been an older, poorer performing player, they'd have gotten the axe.


How do you think that stacks with the sex assault allegation not too long ago?

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