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 Post subject: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:14 pm 
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Shibano Toramaru won the 4th game today to go 3-1 up. 124 moves in total.

https://igo-kifu.com/kifu/10526 with AI graph

or

https://kifudepot.net/kifucontents.php? ... Bf8A%3D%3D with Youtube videos

Games 2 and 3 were also short games - Game 2 lasted just 96 moves and was over before lunch on day 2. Game 3 149 moves.

Iyama wanted to equal Cho Chikun's record of ten consecutive titles, but I think that is looking unlikely now.

Take Care - John


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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:30 pm 
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I don't know why, but I think that Iyama is always looking for a fight too much. Maybe it's his style, maybe it's the new AI style, or maybe Shibano is such an opponent (might be) that he feels that he has to try extra hard. But... 1-3...

Wow

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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #3 Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:19 pm 
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Cho Chikun was down 1-3 in the Honinbo match in 1990 against Koichi Kobayashi. Cho pulled off a win. Maybe Yuta Iyama can come back in a similar fashion?

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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #4 Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:01 am 
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I think Iyama (like Cho) is strong enough to win 3 games in a row. I also think that Shibano (like Kobayashi) is strong enough to kill the match the next game.

well...

In the end, this is not only about ability in the game. The psychological pressure is big.
Inside Shibano's head, a voice might be saying "you have 3 chances, if you don't win the first one you are still ok...". But if it goes to the last game, "you have wasted 2 chances, why do you have to fight like this now?". And things like that.

One stone at a time.


Last edited by pajaro on Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #5 Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:45 am 
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Managing to win three successive kadoban games has happened the Honinbo title match in the past. Besides Cho's comeback to win against Kobayashi, I think there were at least two more in modern times. My memory might be inaccurate but Rin Kaiho won the last three games in a row against Cho Chikun to win the title in 1983, and Hane Naoki won the title by winning the last three games in a row against Takao Shinji in 2008.

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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #6 Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:28 pm 
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It's still more surprising.

In 1983, Cho won the first 3 games, Rin won the 4 remaining games.

In 2008 they did it again. First 3 games for Takao, 4 remaining games for Hane. The last one had 135 moves.

In both cases, the titleholder lost the match.


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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #7 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:19 pm 
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I think the first time that a player who was 3-0 up in a best of seven and then lost the next four games was Ishida in the 1973 Old Meijin, when he lost to Rin. This made such an impact at the time that The Nihon Kiin even published a 227 page book on this the 12th Meijin.

Ishida was nicknamed "the computer" and won game 1 by jigo. Rin won game 4 with a jigo and again game 6 by jigo. The pressure on Rin must have been huge.

There is a 22 page commentary (by Go Seigen) translated from The Yomiuri on Game 6 in Go Review Quarterly Winter 1974. Rin's comment "After I lost the third game, I gave up any hope of winning the series, so I was able to relax for the last four games. I also managed my time better".

Ishida said "After the third game, I seemed to tighten up. It hurt me to lose from the won position I had in the fourth game and then I played very badly in the fifth game".

I found this an interesting insight into the psychological pressures.

Take Care - John


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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #8 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:58 am 
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Iyama won the 5th game, quite well played, I think. He even lost a ko in a big trade (I think he still had local threats, so he still had a chance).

3-2, still 2 kadoban games.

Let's see how Shibano's mind reacts.

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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #9 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:04 am 
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I watched the video of the game. I noticed that an AI evaluation was posted from time to time. Interesting is the fact that for some time the AI estimated Black's (Shibano) at 70% but sometime later the odds were switched. Suggests that SHiban made some serious mistake when he was ahead.

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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #10 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:37 pm 
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I watched the game too.

The ko fight was very long, and I noticed that AI used to consider the white group dead or alive depending on next turn. Also, the upper side (while only a few white stones had been played) was estimated as white's territory, or not, with the same position. Perhaps it was because the AI calculated some ko threats, or some big exchange, but I didn't understand the reasons for that estimate. I have read that some people say that ko fights are a weakness in some AI.

In the game, after all, white lost (gave up?) the ko and won by resign.

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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #11 Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:53 am 
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Iyama won the 6th game today to level the score at 3-3. I watched quite a bit due to a morning in hospital and enjoyed watching it live. A few things surprised me.

https://igo-kifu.com/kifu/10583

When the match was live, the kifu was updated in real time and only when Shibano resigned did the AI graph appear - it doesn't handle the komi correctly.

White pushes Black along the 5th line with 24 and 26 and again with 50 (which I always thought was bad). Black gets the big turn at 53 - a nice move. At this point AI shows the position as equal (ignoring handling of komi).

I was taught don't play two large knight's moves from the star point (because of the 3-3 invasion) - with 60 Shibano plays two small knight's moves in the top left. This is a standard corner and White can't live at the 3-3 point. I had to check out my standard corners in Cho U's Life and Death Dictionary - there are 68 pages on the 3-3 invasion of the star point.....

The tricky question was the status of the bottom right corner. I thought it would become seki, professionals know the status!

Looking forward to the final game

Take Care - John

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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #12 Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:30 pm 
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Online playing schedule: A schedule..? When hell freezes over... maybe. ^^;
I'm really busy with work at the moment so I actually forgot about the game.. :oops: So thanks a lot for the reminder, John. And get well soon!

I'm very happy that Iyama won. I like both players, but I want Iyama to keep the Honinbo title for a bit longer and will cheer for him in the last game on 6-7 July. After the match I want to play through all games, something I haven't done for years. I was extremely surprised by Shibano's two super quick wins in the early games of the title match and I'm curious to see whether I can detect the crucial mistakes made without a commentary or AI Sensei. And then try to find some commentaries on the game, which will be much harder without understanding Japanese. But maybe someone on this excellent forum can share a few more infos after the last game has been played.

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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #13 Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:24 pm 
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3-3 (the result, not the invasion :lol: )

What I said about lost chances, voices in the head... here we go.

After Iyama lost the 4th game, he pulled an unexpected win against Xe Kie (on-line game). Also won the first game of the Gosei agains Ichiriki, who had been undefeated for some time. Somehow, I think something inside him made click and he is winning again.

Anything can happen. But I think that Iyama has the upper hand in the 7th game.

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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #14 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:01 am 
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Online playing schedule: A schedule..? When hell freezes over... maybe. ^^;
Last game, 2nd day is on and can be watched live on the Nihon Kiin's Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_41gsJmIwVA

So far, Iyama managed to destroy Shiban's right side influence and is, according to AI, far ahead (>90% winning percentage). Let's see if he can keep that advantage in the beginning center battle... Oh, and it might be lunch break soon. If you don't see a video that might be the reason. I have no idea when it begins and how long it takes (1 hour? 2?), so you might want to check back a little bit later in that case.

I'm a bit sad for Shibano if Iyama wins, but I want Iyama to equal Cho CHikun's record of consecutive Honinbo titles and want him to win this year and next year, too. Shibano has much time left and will definitely win it some time in the future. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #15 Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:23 am 
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It's over.

Iyama won the last game. "Easy" is surely too strong a word, but while I was watching the game, I thought he was always in control. He didn't attack at any point. I mean, he didn't seem to push Shibano, threat any group... but even so, he didn't need it. After some point, Shibano's only chance was a big (really big) kill, so he began giving territory in exchange of thickness for his attack.

I felt sorry for him. He was so close, with convincing wins... but after all, the experience and mental strength made a huge difference.

We have Honinbo Monyu for a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: 76th Honinbo Title Match - Game 4 - Shibano now 3-1 up
Post #16 Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:21 am 
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Iyama Yuta really is something else. Wow.

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