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Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
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Author:  hyperpape [ Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
Yeah, it seems like there's only one team they might be equally matched against:

Hebei Xinao with
Li Ming, Xie Ke, Xia Jiankun, Liu Xing
Author:  by78 [ Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
lambdacdm wrote:
by78 wrote:
Has the level of Japanese Go declined this much? I'm beginning to get the feeling that even if Japan had sent Iyama, Takao, and Yamashita, they still wouldn't make it into the A-League.

By the way, how did GoRatings.org rank Iyama as high as number two in the world?!

I'm sure Team Japan will not be promoted to A-League. A-League is too competitive for these players (except Iyama).



No, Iyama wouldn't be competitive if he were in the A-League. If those names you mentioned couldn't get a wining record, then Iyama would be lucky to win 30-35% of his games.

B-League is more likely Iyama's level.
Author:  wolfking [ Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
by78 wrote:
No, Iyama wouldn't be competitive if he were in the A-League. If those names you mentioned couldn't get a wining record, then Iyama would be lucky to win 30-35% of his games.

B-League is more likely Iyama's level.


I think it is simply too difficult to predict how Iyama would fair in A-league. I still believe he should at least be in world top 20 if not top 10 or even top 5. There are just not enough data to gauge his strength against other top players. If he could play in B-league at least that would provide a few more data points. And his schedule makes it very difficult to play in A-league which is a weekly fair, so B-league might be the best we could hope for.

Unfortunately(well fortunately for his team) Lee Sedol won his last round game and his team (which finished in 3rd place) will play in A-league next year due to the expansion of A-league! So we will not see Iyama vs Lee in B-league.
Author:  by78 [ Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
wolfking wrote:
by78 wrote:
No, Iyama wouldn't be competitive if he were in the A-League. If those names you mentioned couldn't get a wining record, then Iyama would be lucky to win 30-35% of his games.

B-League is more likely Iyama's level.


I think it is simply too difficult to predict how Iyama would fair in A-league. I still believe he should at least be in world top 20 if not top 10 or even top 5. There are just not enough data to gauge his strength against other top players. If he could play in B-league at least that would provide a few more data points. And his schedule makes it very difficult to play in A-league which is a weekly fair, so B-league might be the best we could hope for.

Unfortunately(well fortunately for his team) Lee Sedol won his last round game and his team (which finished in 3rd place) will play in A-league next year due to the expansion of A-league! So we will not see Iyama vs Lee in B-league.


Not even the Japanese themselves rank Iyama in the world top 20. GoRatings.org is the LTCM of Go player rankings; take it seriously at your own risk.

GoRatings is run by a programmer, not by a trained statistician, and the ranking relies on incomplete data.

Other ranking lists (run by Asian organizations with access to games and data points not available to GoRatings.org) all have Iyama much, much lower.

The Japanese themselves rank Iyama at #23: http://sports.geocities.jp/mamumamu0413/total.html.

Dr. Bae's ranking is kinder as he has Iyama at #17 as of this April: https://www.baduk.or.kr/news/report_view.asp?news_no=1738

There really is no need to ask if Iyama is in the world top-10 because he's most definitely NOT strong enough to merit that question, unless you want to abandon all common sense and reason.

Instead, we should ask if Iyama is a world top-20 player. Again, the answer is probably NO.

I think Iyama would fare poorly if he were to participate in the Chinese A-league. But I think he is a good fit for the B-league, and there is no shame in that because these Chinese leagues are no walk in the park.
Author:  hyperpape [ Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
Saying things louder doesn't make them more convincing.
by78 wrote:
GoRatings is run by a programmer, not by a trained statistician
The "programmer" is a Ph.D. in Computer Science, whose work covered machine learning and monte carlo methods, Dr. Bae Taeil is a Physicist.

As far as arguments from authority go, let's call it a push.
Author:  Uberdude [ Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
I wonder what qualifications and office mamumamu holds has that makes him the voice of "The Japanese".
Author:  ez4u [ Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
Uberdude wrote:
I wonder what qualifications and office mamumamu holds has that makes him the voice of "The Japanese".

Simply the energy and enthusiasm to spend years doing what no one in the Nihon Kiin, Kansai Kiin or any other 'official' organization cares to do.
Author:  Uberdude [ Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
ez4u, my comment wasn't meant as a slight against mamumamu, I think he does a great job (and I've like your posts based on his information), but to highlight by78's double standards: he poo-poos Remi's goratings with the relatively high raking of Iyama as the work of a mere programmer not a statistician, but fails to apply the same ad hominem arguments to other sources of ratings which agree with his lower ranking of Iyama.
Author:  hyperpape [ Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
I just noticed that back in June 2014, Taeil's rankings had Iyama at 5th, Kono Rin at 20th and Yamashita at 31st (http://senseis.xmp.net/?WorldRanking).

I am eagerly awaiting by78's response.
Author:  wolfking [ Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
Regardless of Iyama's ranking, I think we all want to see him play in B-league against Chinese and Korean opponents. Hopefully Ko Reibun can make it happen.
Author:  kimidori [ Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
I don't understand why all topics relating to Japanese Go end up discussing Iyama's strength, perhaps we are only just eager to see him playing more internationally.

I think we should point out one thing that Goratings puts Iyama that high because it also ranks other Japanese players in the top 100, whereas the other ranking lists (Dr Taeil or mamumamu) put the 2nd Japanese player well below. By "common sense", I would say that I tend to believe Goratings more, seeing how Kono Rin or maybe Ichikiri Ryo performs in important international tournaments. I'm not talking only about the recent Ing Cup or Nongshim Cup, but Kono did beat Fan Tingyu twice in the last 3 years, also being the runner-up of the Asian TV Cup.

Now saying that Iyama is "only" no.17 or no.23 in the world, again "by common sense", I don't see why he is "only B-league level" or "need luck to win 30-35% in A-league". Perhaps he is not a good fit for the captain board position (where you need to be Ke Jie or Park Junghwan to ensure a positive score), but at a 2nd or maybe 3rd board, it won't surprise me if he can manage a positive score.
Author:  ez4u [ Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
Uberdude wrote:
ez4u, my comment wasn't meant as a slight against mamumamu, I think he does a great job (and I've like your posts based on his information), but to highlight by78's double standards: he poo-poos Remi's goratings with the relatively high raking of Iyama as the work of a mere programmer not a statistician, but fails to apply the same ad hominem arguments to other sources of ratings which agree with his lower ranking of Iyama.

I am not aware who among the people involved in go/chess ratings can be defined as professional statisticians. It seems that Mark Glickman is one (the glicko rating system). Arpad Elo was another a physicist as I understand it.

When I look at Remi's work on bayselo, the program used to calculate the computer chess rating list and his work on whole history rating, I am not sure how you tell the difference between him and a "professional" statistician anyway. Certainly I can't do it.
Author:  lambdacdm [ Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
by78 wrote:
lambdacdm wrote:
by78 wrote:
Has the level of Japanese Go declined this much? I'm beginning to get the feeling that even if Japan had sent Iyama, Takao, and Yamashita, they still wouldn't make it into the A-League.

By the way, how did GoRatings.org rank Iyama as high as number two in the world?!

I'm sure Team Japan will not be promoted to A-League. A-League is too competitive for these players (except Iyama).



No, Iyama wouldn't be competitive if he were in the A-League. If those names you mentioned couldn't get a wining record, then Iyama would be lucky to win 30-35% of his games.

B-League is more likely Iyama's level.

Iyama would be competitive in A-league, but not as captain.
Author:  lambdacdm [ Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
hyperpape wrote:
Yeah, it seems like there's only one team they might be equally matched against:

Hebei Xinao with
Li Ming, Xie Ke, Xia Jiankun, Liu Xing

You forgot their strongest player Kang Dongyun.
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
Thanks. I was looking at the match they played without him.

I'm curious to see how the Japanese team does in the B-league. Ichiriki and Hsu both have done pretty well against Chinese and Korean players in the past.

And I'd love to see Iyama play in the A league. I don't know how he'd do (I don't actually have a belief whether goratings is right or not), but I'd love to see another half-dozen games between him and top players.
Author:  kimidori [ Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
Do someone have a link to the result of A-league please?

Btw, I have seen Murakawa Daisuke played in B-league last year, as the captain position indeed. He went 2-5 and his team got demoted (I didn't seen that Tibet team in C-League this year, however), but I still think that the Japanese team (if they continue to send Ichikiri and Kyo Kagen) could do fine in league B, perhaps they will get even a better result with a stronger captain.
Author:  hyperpape [ Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
A-league results (in English): http://igokisen.web.fc2.com/cn/al.html
Author:  wolfking [ Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
kimidori wrote:
Do someone have a link to the result of A-league please?

Btw, I have seen Murakawa Daisuke played in B-league last year, as the captain position indeed. He went 2-5 and his team got demoted (I didn't seen that Tibet team in C-League this year, however), but I still think that the Japanese team (if they continue to send Ichikiri and Kyo Kagen) could do fine in league B, perhaps they will get even a better result with a stronger captain.


This page has results (missing most recent round) of A-league on the right hand side but it is in Chinese: http://sports.sina.com.cn/zt_d/weijia2016

I believe the Tibet B-league team from last year partially merged with the 6th place team (Xuancheng Jingting Weiqi School) and is still playing in B-league as Team Lhasa Weiqi School. The new team inherited Tibet team's coaches and one player (Zhang Qiang), with two players from the Xuancheng team and one new member from Korea (Kim Myounghoon).
Author:  hyperpape [ Wed May 17, 2017 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
Does anyone who can read results know how the Japanese team is doing this year?
Author:  oren [ Wed May 17, 2017 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Japan leading China Weiqi C-League
I could do it but need a link to the new results page.
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